Mary Cain has OFFICIALLY surpassed Jim Ryun's legacy.

I've made the same point about high school. Mary is now the GOAT.

BUT, in the 1966-1967 season, Ryun:

--won NCAA indoors and outdoors

--broke the WR at 880

--broke the WR at 1500

--broke the WR at mile

Prior to developing mono, the ONLY distance person you could even compare Ryun with was Henry Rono.

That's not going to be repeated by Mary, as those records on the womens side are held by obvious dopers.

Ryun was ill. He caught something going around the US athlete's village and ran the worst race of his life up to that point (surpassed only by his DFL finish in a euro race in 1971 when he was again ill with hay fever).

Ryun set the open US record for the mile as a senior and beat the reigning olympic gold & silver medalists.

Cain still has a ways to go.

Mary Cain has to deal with the African contingent, many of whom were not present during Ryun's time.

At this point agree on Cain, but she still has a long way to go to catch Ryuns legacy.

Prediction- Cain runs 4:01 for 3rd

Aren't the Olympics a bigger deal and more difficult than the world championships? Also, what about Mary Decker or Gerry Lindgren?

yea well... wrote:

Mary Cain has to deal with the African contingent, many of whom were not present during Ryun's time.

True--very few of her opponents had been born by the mid-1960s.

someone had to do it wrote:

Ryun was ill. He caught something going around the US athlete's village and ran the worst race of his life up to that point (surpassed only by his DFL finish in a euro race in 1971 when he was again ill with hay fever).

Ryun set the open US record for the mile as a senior and beat the reigning olympic gold & silver medalists.

Cain still has a ways to go.

Like I said, the conversation is far from over. But at this point, Cain holds the slight advantage, imo. 3:57 could be in reach during her senior year, too. She'll never touch the world records, but those records are performance enhanced. Track is also far more globalized than it was in the 60s, though obviously women's track still lags behind men's track. There are still plenty more Ethiopians and Kenyans for Cain to compete with, compared to Ryun.

jsmskks wrote:

Aren't the Olympics a bigger deal and more difficult than the world championships? Also, what about Mary Decker or Gerry Lindgren?

In theory, yes, but Mary Cain couldn't control what year she was born in. So that shouldn't play into the equation. Mary Cain has performed exceedingly well at the biggest track meet in the world in 2013--that's what matters in this conversation.

Legacy? Legacy is not made after one stellar season as a teenager. Mary Cain is incredibly impressive and I'm a big fan, but the title of this thread should be "Mary Cain has surpassed Jim Ryun's junior year in high school."

Josh Hamilton's Addiction wrote:

jsmskks wrote:

Aren't the Olympics a bigger deal and more difficult than the world championships? Also, what about Mary Decker or Gerry Lindgren?

In theory, yes, but Mary Cain couldn't control what year she was born in. So that shouldn't play into the equation. Mary Cain has performed exceedingly well at the biggest track meet in the world in 2013--that's what matters in this conversation.

Well, that's not Ryun's problem either. You can't compare their performances like that if they didn't run in the same meet. World champs and the Olympics are on different levels. You could say a similar thing for Ryun. Had his year been a world championship instead, then he might have won.

I'm still not convinced that she's better than Lindgren or Decker.

I'm still not convinced that she's better than Lindgren or Decker.

lol.

I'm guessing no one will ever be as good as the Beatles, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, Carl Lewis, no movie will outshine Casablanca, and no story will best Hamlet in your opinion either.

jsmskks wrote:

Well, that's not Ryun's problem either. You can't compare their performances like that if they didn't run in the same meet. World champs and the Olympics are on different levels. You could say a similar thing for Ryun. Had his year been a world championship instead, then he might have won.

I'm still not convinced that she's better than Lindgren or Decker.

The fact remains that at the biggest possible stage following their junior years, Cain performed better.

As for Decker--Cain has set national HS records in the 1500, 800, 5000, 1500(i), mile(i), 3000(i), and 2 mile(i), all as a junior. That comparison isn't even close. Not to mention Cain might even break Decker's US 1500 record before leaving high school. Lindgren was not greater than Ryun, so I don't perceive him to be greater than Cain either.

I think we all understand why she is reluctant to be interviewed. "Mary, do you think you have now OFFICIALLY surpassed Jim Ryun's legacy?" or "Except for the dopers, do you have a chance to be the best American mid-distance runner ever?"

alanson wrote:

I think we all understand why she is reluctant to be interviewed. "Mary, do you think you have now OFFICIALLY surpassed Jim Ryun's legacy?" or "Except for the dopers, do you have a chance to be the best American mid-distance runner ever?"

My guess is Mary Cain doesn't even know who Jim Ryun is.

Josh Hamilton's Addiction wrote:

The fact remains that at the biggest possible stage following their junior years, Cain performed better.

As for Decker--Cain has set national HS records in the 1500, 800, 5000, 1500(i), mile(i), 3000(i), and 2 mile(i), all as a junior. That comparison isn't even close. Not to mention Cain might even break Decker's US 1500 record before leaving high school. Lindgren was not greater than Ryun, so I don't perceive him to be greater than Cain either.

What don't you understand about that not being a valid comparison? You can't compare the Olympics with the world championships. You're penalizing Ryun for something that was not in his control. So you can't use this as a comparison metric between them. You'll have to go with times. Theonly championships you can use are ones that they both did.

You're exaggerating those records. She's got the 800, 1500, 2 mile, and the 5000. The 3000 is the same event as the 3200 and likewise for the 1500. And those are high school records. Ryun and Decker were running world class times.

V6 wrote:

I'm still not convinced that she's better than Lindgren or Decker.

lol.

I'm guessing no one will ever be as good as the Beatles, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, Carl Lewis, no movie will outshine Casablanca, and no story will best Hamlet in your opinion either.

No, why would you guess all of that?

jsmskks wrote:

What don't you understand about that not being a valid comparison? You can't compare the Olympics with the world championships. You're penalizing Ryun for something that was not in his control. So you can't use this as a comparison metric between them. You'll have to go with times. Theonly championships you can use are ones that they both did.

You're exaggerating those records. She's got the 800, 1500, 2 mile, and the 5000. The 3000 is the same event as the 3200 and likewise for the 1500. And those are high school records. Ryun and Decker were running world class times.

What don't you understand about Mary Cain's high school times being faster than Decker's?

Beating the 1964 Olympic Champ isn't the same as beating the Olympic Champ now. Competition is much deeper and stronger now. The US records were also weaker compared to now.

Cain > Ryun

Cain doesn't run HS. Thus not eligible.