Indeed it is. Discuss if you like.
Indeed it is. Discuss if you like.
It's pretty darn good no question. But Webb's 3:53 is better.
I hope Mary doesn't go to Moscow. If she has to go to Europe maybe Paris or Monaco but she doesn't need the WC's in Russia.
Well, here's a few things to condiser:
A. They broke the records of folks who went on to Olympic Silver Medals (Ryun and Gallagher). You could make the argument that Ryun underperformed and had some bad luck, and Gallagher was underappreciated.
B. Both Records lasted over 30 years, and were thought to be out of reach.
C. Future...after the record: Cain is still a junior, and may put the record out of reach. Webb went on to set the American mile record and has great PRs from 800-10k.
D. What do the IAAF tables say? How many women have broken two, how many men have run under 3:54?
Mary's 4:04 is ALREADY more impressive than Webb's 3:53 because she ran it as a JUNIOR.
Mary's 1:59.51 is two seconds faster than she ran prior to the 4:04. If Mary goes to Monaco peaked, I think she can go sub-4...before she's a high school senior. And the new target will be Mary Slaney's AR.
if you look at the two performances ignoring the fact that they were run by high schoolers, I think Cain's sub 2 is more impressive. This year alone Cain is #5 of the year at 800m and 16th at 1500m. a 3:53 right now would put a man in 12th for the mile, and if you call 3:53=3:36, then that's #20-25.
3:53 is fast and for a high schooler is way farther ahead than mary's 800 is compared to high schoolers, but 3:53 won't win any races while 1:59 could at a national level.
none of this means anything until ten years down the line when mary has really shown what she's capable of. webb's done that.
reed wrote:
3:53 is fast and for a high schooler is way farther ahead than mary's 800 is compared to high schoolers, but 3:53 won't win any races while 1:59 could at a national level.
3:53 won't win any races at the national level? How many races this year have been won faster than 3:53/3:36?
ksks wrote:
reed wrote:3:53 is fast and for a high schooler is way farther ahead than mary's 800 is compared to high schoolers, but 3:53 won't win any races while 1:59 could at a national level.
3:53 won't win any races at the national level? How many races this year have been won faster than 3:53/3:36?
how about the diamond league meets so far this year?
Webb has only Ryun (the greatest prep distance runner - male or female ) close to him - the others were 3:59 plus (so 6 seconds off). Cain - so far - has Gallagher and Ajee Wilson and others within a second. So at this time - Webb's is easily superior.
Uhhhhhh no. Hundreds of high school athletes run 1:59 each year. Only one has run 3:53.
You guys are nuts. 1:59 is amazing, but it's not even Cain's own best record. Her 4:04 1500m is easily her most impressive stat.
yesstiles wrote:
You guys are nuts. 1:59 is amazing, but it's not even Cain's own best record. Her 4:04 1500m is easily her most impressive stat.
Exactly.
4:04 1500m >>> 1:59 800m. Her 800 yesterday just confirmed what she could already obviously do, but the 1500 is her better event. The discussion should be comparing that time with Alan Webb's 3:53.
Crazy in a good way though, right? The program would be 3 months long with workshops that teach them how to manage it, weekly progress reports, medical/health,talent development.
There is a huge stigma to break so I want to brand it differently, replacing fear with respect. That's one reason why showing the talent development is so important.
Each person in the program would have a mentor and a program buddy. The support network would be vetted (health facilities, speakers, mentors, health practitioners..., would all have to pass our standards).
Meds wouldn't be pushed, but offered as one type of treatment.
The company I work for is run so similar, but in a different vertical. So it is going to be easier for me to learn how to build it.
4:04 might be better for a high schooler, but not in general. 1:59 is much better - both in terms of the number of women who have done it, and, I think, intrinsically. Any 1500 meter runner worth their salt should have a PR at that distance which is about twice their 800 time.
I know it isn't talked about a lot and probably doesn't make much of a difference but how much faster have shoes/track surfaces gotten in the last 13 years? I don't think it makes much of a difference when comparing these two.
Link wrote:
4:04 might be better for a high schooler, but not in general. 1:59 is much better - both in terms of the number of women who have done it, and, I think, intrinsically. Any 1500 meter runner worth their salt should have a PR at that distance which is about twice their 800 time.
No, breaking 2:00 for 800m is equivalent to breaking 4:10 for 1500m. It's just that most distance runners don't ever train specifically for the 800m, an event that requires it, whereas a good 1500m can be run with decent training by even 3000m/5000m types.
yesstiles wrote:
You guys are nuts. 1:59 is amazing, but it's not even Cain's own best record. Her 4:04 1500m is easily her most impressive stat.
1:59 for a female HS Jr is off the fvckin' charts you goofballs. It's most definitely superior to her 1500 and mile PRs at this point. She's less than 5 seconds off what Kazankina was running in '76 and that was considered out of this world. Of course Kazankina was drugged to the gills, but that's a story for another day.
You do realize that Mary Cain just set the high school record for the women's 800m, right? Or are you just trolling?
Bear in mind girls mature earlier than boys.
So a 17yo girl is more of an adult than a 17yo boy.
A 17/18yo Kenyan male got the bronze in the Olympic 800 last year. He and another Kenyan both ran 1.44 at World Youths (16-17yos, if they were that age) in 2011. That'd be like Mary Cain winning the bronze at the Olympics last year, allowing a one-year difference in the development of boys and girls (it's actually 18 months).
Having said that, Mary Cain still looks like a girl and clearly has some physical development (and therefore improvement) left.
Karma Police wrote:
Bear in mind girls mature earlier than boys.
Really?
Randy Oldman wrote:
Karma Police wrote:Bear in mind girls mature earlier than boys.
Really?
Yes, acknowledged by Dr. Oz.