Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 5/26

Feather wrote:

NP1112 wrote:

Kenny Moore.

From what I know about it, he did moderate-low mileage but would have longer (over marathon distance) reasonably frequently and aimed at longer, harder workout days with shorter, very easy days in between.

Sorry if I am butting in on the discussion here, but have either of you read "Men of Oregon"? It talks a bit about the training of various runners that have gone through the Oregon program, and I recall the tidbits about Kenny Moore's 30-milers. The difference between his approach and what NP is currently doing is that I seemed to get the impression that Moore ran his 30 milers at a very relaxed pace for him. (Like 6-7 min pace, while his marathon pace is around 5-min miles). I think they mentioned that he did this run once every 10 days.

I do know he was a big proponent of the "hard-easy" philosophy. When he was a graduate student at Stanford he used to do his easy runs on the track all the time. Finally one day the assistant track coach approached him and asked him to either run faster or not run on the track at all because it was disheartening to the Standord runners to see him jog slowly all the time and then beat them more and more each time they raced. He replied that he actually does his hard days on the roads and he only runs on the track on easy days so he can make sure he doesn't go too fast. The assistant coach walked off as if he was talking complete nonsense. I think he later told the story to Bowerman and Bowerman made a comment about how easy it was to coach against people who didn't know what they were doing.

has been who never was

That was the weekend before last.

I did...

4:10.8 for the 1500, easing down once my position was secure

15:44 for the 5000 35 mins later

60.6 relay leg 40 mins after that

Steve: no worries. I will have to check that book out. He is doing those long runs easy as fast as i am a workout haha. I love that he did his very easy days on the track to get in the heads of the other guys. Haha

Really don't want to sound like I knew everything, but Steve is spot on, when I remember correctly.

As I recall, Kenny Moore used to do 1 shorter workout (e.g. 600s or shorter), 1 longer workout (e.g. mile repeats, tempos) and 1 longer run in 1 cycle. He'd just do 1 - 2 runs of 3 - 5 miles of JOGGING (6:30 - 7+ minutes per mile) on the days in between (usually 2 easy dasy between workouts). He never or almost never hit 100 mpw. The long runs ususually were easy or moderate (6 - 7 minute mile pace) and NOWHERE near your intensity.

I find your training really interesting, as it seems more Canova style. Canova sometimes lets his athletes do kind of time trials of 35 - 40 K at altitude, close to race effort. So his athletes, like you, are basically running a marathon race in training. Very interesting... Kawauchi seems to have a similar philisophy, as he runs some marathons in his build-ups as well.

NP- A quick warning, "Men of Oregon" is not a book about training specifically. It's almost more of a biography of Bill Bowerman so there are a lot of non-running stuff in there that makes it kind of slow. I found the running-related stories to be very entertaining, and they gave tidbits of workouts that the runners have done as well as highlight most of their major races, but you won't find training logs in there.

I might be speaking blasphemy, but I had to skip over some of the non-running parts of the book (like the first chapter or three on Bowerman's family history) because I just wasn't interested. Once it gets into the running stuff though there's a lot of hilarious stories in there. (Bowerman's dynamite story, trying to make his own gatorade, some dude on the team claiming he can run a sub-2 800 whenever he wanted, etc...) Again, you'll glean bits and pieces of their training and see how Bowerman's general training philosophy shifted over the years (specifically after his visit with Lydiard in New Zealand), but again no day-to-day training plans/logs.

NP1112 wrote:

... what is everyone's pre marathon or long workout breakfast?

For race day I'll have something as simple as a cinnamon raisin bagel. Sometimes with cream cheese sometimes without. I don't really keep track of that. If I'm still hungry maybe I'll sneak a cliff bar too. I also run with a running flask filled with a mix of 3 octane GU's and water.

Flask:

For a regular morning long run, I'll eat whatever. Usually just a cliff bar and a tall glass of water. I take a flask with 2 GU's mixed with water if I'm going 16 or longer.

Fortunately, I have an iron stomach. I can usually get away with whatever. So I don't know if what I mentioned above is ideal or not.

Hi all-

I read through the thread and looks like a lot of you had great weeks last week. I am just back in town from vacation--rode from Pittsburgh to DC on the trails. It was nice to unplug for a few days.

Anyway, shin pain is still there--it's been 2 weeks since my last run and it sucks:(. I'm hoping to start running again on Monday so we'll see how it goes. Anyway, I'll be back to commenting starting on Sunday in the new thread

NP1112 - My pre-marathon breakfast that worked for me at Gettysburg:

3 hours before race - Chocolate Peanut Butter Crunch Clifbar and a banana, washed down with 20oz Lemon Lime Gatorade.

2 hours before race - two slices of toasted English muffin covered with peanut butter and a large cup of coffee. Pee like a racehorse and get my #2 in for the morning.

Last hour before race - 20oz of Lemon Line Gatorade spread out over 35 minutes. Very light 5 minute jog followed by 5 minutes active stretching. Took my first (of eventually five) Triberry Gu packs 15 minutes before the race. Pee like a racehorse.

Race!

I think I counted a total of 1000 calories for the morning, which is important for us bigger guys (I was 164lbs. on race day and I know you carry a comparable frame).

Numbers: Wow! I dont know if I could hold all of that down! I like the idea of spacing things out for digestion though.

I think my concoction of 2x banana, 2xtbsp of pb, juice, spinnach, and protein is about ~600 calories? That is a huge jump, around 2x of what I used to take in.

Good to know others take in more calories and try to spread it out. I have to eat about 3.5-4hrs before a race or hard workout for digestion.

I plan to take a gel at 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. And of course lots of fluids for the next workout. How do you like the gel 15 min before the start, think it helps? last minute quick calories the idea?

I've never raced longer than a half marathon, but ate maybe a couple grapes or a piece of bread before that. I always try to have some coffee or a caffeine pill before races/workouts/long runs, though.

I've actually never hit the wall yet-- my longest run was 21 miles at about 6:40/mi, and it felt fine with no food. Don't the Hansons recommend doing fasted long runs to train your body to metabolize fat better?

Anyone with tips for doing a longer race in hot weather? I am hoping for some ran but the forecast is for things to be hot and humid by my standards on Sunday for my half marathon.

Bartowski: try to get hydrated now and through the race. Adjust your pace to effort and maybe not a certain pace. Drink before you feel thirsty or else its too late.

NP1112 - the whole carbo-loading, pre-race meal thing definitely takes practice. Over the years I have tried various strategies during training and this is kind of the one that now works for me.

You're right - it's really trying to top off stores by consuming 600-700g of carbs each day for the two days prior to the race, and then getting in that last "top off" prior to the race. The Gu 15 minutes prior lets it settle before I start running and is like 100 calories in the bank before the race even starts. I then take a Gu around 4mi, 10mi, 16mi, 20mi, and I'll carry an extra one for "emergency purposes" beyond that if I need it. I also try to get 2-3 gulps of Gatorade out of the cups every 2-3 miles.

This was the first marathon I was able to comfortably consume that amount of calories (which I rehearsed in training), and probably no coincidence, the first marathon I finished without hitting any wall.

I initially tried eating most of the calories 3-4 hours prior to a long workout, but I always felt "heavy" doing that when I started running. For some reason, spacing it out in little manageable quantities works better for me - as does getting about 200 calories from the Gatorade alone.

To each his/her own, and I always recommend trying a variety of strategies until you find one you are comfortable with and then stick with it. For me, my thinking is, if you can handle that amount of calories, then why wouldn't you take it? It's like energy in the bank. :)

Ghola - I know McMillan is a big proponent of the water only strategy on the occasional easy long run. The thinking behind it is exactly as you interpreted it - to improve your body's ability to use fat as a fuel source.

The Hansons don't advocate that fuel strategy in the actual Beginner or Advanced Training plan in their book, but in the last section of the book, where Luke Humphrey gives insight into what their elite runners do, he does mention that once or twice a cycle they use that strategy for that stated purpose. He even gives you his exact 15 week training plan leading up to his marathon PR and shows you where he incorporates that run in the cycle.

Just a quick update: 3k today was in 8:57.67. Pretty happy with the time given the heat during the run (6 PM, something like 88 degrees, 61 dew point), but more importantly, it qualifies me for USATF club nationals. So my season continues for another 4 weeks!

Also, reunions is fun so far, but the number of people I don't know vastly outnumbers the number of people I know, and I'm not too good at these sorts of social situations. Don't know if I'll be able to get my money's worth, but I'll do my best tomorrow/later today!

And I need to get a bit of sleep. See you Sunday!

Numbersguy- Sorry if I'm repeating a sentiment, but I think the way to go here is to balance making sure your body can metabolize fat more effectively with the need to ready your body to take in fuel on the run if you plan on using fuel in the race.

Maybe you could do all your easy/moderate long runs with nothing but water, but then start mimicking your race day fueling strategy during those last 6-8 weeks of really specific marathon prep?

As for this extremely late post- I was in Chicago from last Thursday until this past Tuesday. My week was nothing special- between 25-30 miles of easy jogging, mostly with my girlfriend. Hamstring is good. I'm giving it the rest of this week with the easy jogging and will begin a more earnest buildup on Monday.

grizz - I think that's a perfect assessment and probably what most schools of marathon training would recommend.

1)Always fuel (electrolytes, carbs, H20) for longer tempo-moderate paced efforts and practice a pre-run and mid-run fueling strategy until you find the one that feels right.

2)Occasionally practice the H20 only strategy for straight easy paced long runs (and as McMillan advises, carrying gels for emergency purposes).

Glad to hear your hamstring isn't howling anymore.