So I've heard that it only takes 8 to 12 weeks to maximize the anaerobic system. If this is true, why don't 400m runners only train for like 3 4 months of the year?
So I've heard that it only takes 8 to 12 weeks to maximize the anaerobic system. If this is true, why don't 400m runners only train for like 3 4 months of the year?
Because the 400m requires aerobic training.
LOL11 wrote:
So I've heard that it only takes 8 to 12 weeks to maximize the anaerobic system. If this is true, why don't 400m runners only train for like 3 4 months of the year?
What the hell does this mean?
Depending on what you're talking about, "maximizing" the anaerobic system is much more involved than the aerobic system. The best example of this is on exercises like the squat or deadlift, where the body's central nervous system has to learn to deal with and recruit the available muscle to engage with heavier weights.
That is not true. To improve one's speed ans anaerobic system one must put considerable work into it. Much more than the last few weeks before a major race.
What it means is a lot of people (as usual) don't know what they're talking about outside their area of interest, and its just as wrong as when physiologists talk about just VO2max and An threshold, and totally ignoring all the specifics of race pace.
For total anaerobic training, you have:
(1) Anaerobic capacity, which is the amount of ATP resynthesised of the period of a test.
(2) Anaerobic power, which is the amount of ATP resynthesized per unit time. In sprinting, this is usually called special endurance, which is ability to maintain power over 150-300 meter duration (faster than 400 pace) or 300-600 meters duration (faster than 800 pace, slower than 400 pace).
(3) Speed endurance, which is the ability to maintain a high percentage of maximum velocity over 80-150 meters (up to 15 seconds).
(4) Maximum velocity, which the highest velocity reached over 2 seconds (flying sprints) or 50-80 meters from blocks.
(5) Acceleration power, which is the ability to reach a high maximum velocity (ATP stored in muscle peaks in 2-3 seconds, and after that you use glycolytic energy at a slower rate and max velocity occurs when you can't accelerate any more).
Different events need different contributions from all 5 anaerobic energy systems. Physiologists talking about endurance studies usually are only talking about #1 or #1 and #2. For events of 60-1500m, there's a lot more involved. That's why people train for 8 months to improve something that certain physiologists say you don't need over 6 weeks for.
Speed Endurance is not an energy system. Where did you get the 150m distance for developing speed endurance?
What this post means (as usual) is that people who rag on physiologists don't know $hit about physiology themselves. There are only two anaerobic energy systems: phosphagen system and glycolysis. The names of the "systems" you mentioned are physiologic indexes. They are not energy systems. They do not produce ATP.
If you want to criticize physiologists, make sure you understand physiology yourself. FIVE anaerobic energy systems? Explain to me how the "speed endurance" energy system synthesizes ATP.
As far as I have understood it, you have the:
- Anaerobic capacity, which is similar to Vo2max, as inn it is the Vo2max system that is the max amount of oxygen your body can utilize, with anaerobic capacity being the max amount of lactate your body can tolerate?
As a 4/8 runner, we spend a lot of time during the year focusing on reps of 600m with short recoveries, sometimes as short as 50mwalk 50m jog between reps. These are not done overly quickly but because the recovery is so short, they are much more aerobic than they would be if there was more rest allowed to allow the anaerobic system to recover. Would these workouts be a good example of a vo2max session?
Later in the year we extend the recovery for this type of workout to something like 4x600m with 4 to 5mins recovery. Would this be a good example of anaerobic capacity training?
Canada coach:
Check out the table on page 67 of this presentation:
The last Speed Endurance row (just above Special Endurance I)seems like it should read "80 to 150m" instead of "0 to 150m" as it does.
I think a big problem in coaching is that different terms mean different things to different people. Words like "tempo", "speed", "speed endurance", "capacity", etc. have definitions that are all over the place.
The Winckler chart is in that Shaver presentation linked above. The British sprint classification has some differences, especially in their "Special Endurance" definitions. Here is a link to an article on the British version:
Excellent discussion
The body's ability to handle higher levels of H+ ions can be maximised in approx 6 weeks of week however the level you can achieve with this does depend on a few factors;
Aerobic capacity
Speed
If you look at most elite level 400runners these two elements will be a primary focus throughout the winter in some way and the building to a SPP where a more specific tolerance period will be brought in allowing adaptation that can then be drilled down to 400 specific endurance and speed in the season
This is exactly how I work it here in the uk
SlowFatMaster wrote:
The last Speed Endurance row (just above Special Endurance I)seems like it should read "80 to 150m" instead of "0 to 150m" as it does.
I think a big problem in coaching is that different terms mean different things to different people. Words like "tempo", "speed", "speed endurance", "capacity", etc. have definitions that are all over the place.
The Winckler chart is in that Shaver presentation linked above. The British sprint classification has some differences, especially in their "Special Endurance" definitions. Here is a link to an article on the British version:
http://media.speedendurance.com/ebooks/UKA-Michael_Khmel&Tony_Lester_CLASSIFYING_SPRINT_TRAINING_METHODS.pdf
I'd agree that the SE row should really be 80-150, but there are different modes of training here. Short speed endurance means sets of reps of 50-80 meters with long rest between sets. Real speed endurance as a sustained run really goes from your Max Velocity up to what you can maintain for 15 seconds, which is 150m for high level athletes.
But some of what is above has also been invalidated by new work. See this figure:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnume/2010/905612.fig.009.jpgIn this paper:
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnume/2010/905612/I got to this paper by watching Yohan Blake's 9.68 by pushing force into the track all the way to the finish and asking myself "how did he do that"?
It seems that you don't have 7 seconds of CPK energy, as it tops out in ~2 seconds, so high-end glycolytic training becomes more important.
Rod Munch wrote:
What this post means (as usual) is that people who rag on physiologists don't know $hit about physiology themselves. There are only two anaerobic energy systems: phosphagen system and glycolysis. The names of the "systems" you mentioned are physiologic indexes. They are not energy systems. They do not produce ATP.
If you want to criticize physiologists, make sure you understand physiology yourself. FIVE anaerobic energy systems? Explain to me how the "speed endurance" energy system synthesizes ATP.
This type of comment almost makes me want to talk about "physiogeeks" like malmo, and its why many sprint and mid distance coaches greet much physiology research with laughter and derision.
The fact that most physiologists don't understand the chart Slowfatmaster linked is the problem. Most of them (you?) are too arrogant to understand how the results are used so they draw conclusions that are totally invalid. They take a bunch of non-athletic subjects (because that's what they select) into a lab, run some silly experiment with wingate or something, and conclude that you only need to train your anaerobic system for 4-6 weeks. Or they take some university students that can maybe sprint 11.5 on a good day, run some other silly experiment and try do draw conclusions about sub-10.2 real sprinters. Totally invalid...and totally ignored by most sprint coaches. And, frankly, only a few scientists like Peter Weyand understand such things.
Yes, sprint and mid distance coaches will train anaerobic capacity for 1-3 months as intensive tempo or something, but that's just the base training.
AFTER a guy like Bolt does what the idiotic physiologists say is all you need to do, THEN the sprint training starts.
Once you're in shape, you train to accelerate as hard and far as you can. When you stop accelerating, that is largely your Max Velocity (only minimally trainable directly). Once you have Max Velocity, you develop speed endurance of that velocity. The guy running 150 meter sprints is producing ATP just like the guy running a wingate test...and it takes a hell of a lot more than 6 weeks to maximize this, whether you are a sprint coach, a mid distance coach, or someone like Salazar who "gets it."
coach d:
Great paper!
I'm guessing that the idea about it only taking 6 weeks to fully develop the anaerobic system got traction in part from Lydiard, who said something similar.
By the way, have you seen this article by Borzov about how Borzov trained?
http://speedendurance.com/2009/01/12/valeri-borzov-training-procedures-in-sprinting/
He doesn't really talk about energy systems or what the various stages of "recovery" mean. He also describes "method C" which sounds like one version of today's Speed Endurance with pretty complete recoveries. He actually likes "method A" and "method B" better, with incomplete recoveries. I believe Dennis Mitchell used to train sort of like method A and B, but I don't remember where I saw the article about Mitchell's training.
SlowFatMaster wrote:
coach d:
Great paper!
I'm guessing that the idea about it only taking 6 weeks to fully develop the anaerobic system got traction in part from Lydiard, who said something similar.
By the way, have you seen this article by Borzov about how Borzov trained?
http://speedendurance.com/2009/01/12/valeri-borzov-training-procedures-in-sprinting/He doesn't really talk about energy systems or what the various stages of "recovery" mean. He also describes "method C" which sounds like one version of today's Speed Endurance with pretty complete recoveries. He actually likes "method A" and "method B" better, with incomplete recoveries. I believe Dennis Mitchell used to train sort of like method A and B, but I don't remember where I saw the article about Mitchell's training.
while read the Valery Borzov article.
I didn´t knew that anabolic steroids is named vitamins !
Or comment the article another way: where´s the lab they use to do the D kind of runs ?
Borzov is from the era where ther´s no drug test control either. They took every kind of medicine that able them to run fast. Of course ther´s some training included, but the reason they win and did superior performances it´s not about rich training, but rich drugs. Illegal drugs.
Well you are clearly not a scientist because you assume that scientists don't know how to properly apply their findings to the appropriate population. I've never seen any studies performed with healthy, college aged males that then inferred the results to elites. That is an improper inference to a population from which you did not sample. Any researcher knows this. Not saying it never happens, but I think you hate on scientists because the media distorts what their scientific findings are. This happens all the time. Makes scientists look bad. I'm not saying your training protocols are useless, I'm saying just stop inaccurately naming energy systems. Your training protocols are solid. Just don't say that physiology is useless.
Rod Munch wrote:
What this post means (as usual) is that people who rag on physiologists don't know $hit about physiology themselves. There are only two anaerobic energy systems: phosphagen system and glycolysis. The names of the "systems" you mentioned are physiologic indexes. They are not energy systems. They do not produce ATP.
If you want to criticize physiologists, make sure you understand physiology yourself. FIVE anaerobic energy systems? Explain to me how the "speed endurance" energy system synthesizes ATP.
Only two anaerobic energy systems: phosphagen and glycolysis?
And you consider yourself an expert?
What about glycogenolyis and the adenylate kinase reaction?
Everyone is talking around the question.The 400m is not an "anaerobic" only event.
LOL11 wrote:
So I've heard that it only takes 8 to 12 weeks to maximize the anaerobic system. If this is true, why don't 400m runners only train for like 3 4 months of the year?
