There are many cases of marathoners who are able to beat faster 5/10k runners at the marathon because they're in better aerobic shape. The 14:00 guy may attain that time because he's very fast at the mile and finds the 14:00 pace fairly slow but is beginning to struggle as distances get longer. If the 14:00 5k guy slows to 30:30 at 10k and can't beat the 30:00 guy it's likely because the 30:00 guy is in better aerobic shape.
Clown? I'd beg to differ. His aerobic philosophy is a sound program, with enough credible success that anyone who can not seem to make the jump to the next level, may want to bank some aerobic HRM training for awhile. No different than what the kenyans are doing albeit by feel instead of HRMs.
HRE wrote:
There are many cases of marathoners who are able to beat faster 5/10k runners at the marathon because they're in better aerobic shape. The 14:00 guy may attain that time because he's very fast at the mile and finds the 14:00 pace fairly slow but is beginning to struggle as distances get longer. If the 14:00 5k guy slows to 30:30 at 10k and can't beat the 30:00 guy it's likely because the 30:00 guy is in better aerobic shape.
The 14:00 guy could be in better aerobic condition than the 30:00 guy, and still lose in the marathon because the marathon comes down to fuel consumption.
HRE wrote:
There are many cases of marathoners who are able to beat faster 5/10k runners at the marathon because they're in better aerobic shape. The 14:00 guy may attain that time because he's very fast at the mile and finds the 14:00 pace fairly slow but is beginning to struggle as distances get longer. If the 14:00 5k guy slows to 30:30 at 10k and can't beat the 30:00 guy it's likely because the 30:00 guy is in better aerobic shape.
Agreed. But I didn't ask about whether marathoners could beat these theoretical 14:00 and 30:00 runners. I commented "Whose aerobic pace is likely to be faster?"
I don't know why he uses two runners with time in different events anyway. But since he did, 14:00 is roughly equivalent to 29:00.
Also, over history, do you really want to question whether the 5k/10k events are really closely related? Think of how many 5k WR holders and top runners were also top 10k runners and WR holders.
He's not that great a writer, but the core of what he is saying was years ahead of what is common place/trendy these days. He was ahead of the curve of minimal shoes, reducing (for most diets) carbs for endurance athletes and the need for omega-3 fats for recovery and of course, heart rate based training. He was writing all this in the 90's. I do wonder if he was doping his athletes though, he has a book on hormone deficiencies and how to correct them.
I don't know whether to bitch you down or explain the aerobic concept that is Maffetone. The Maffetone test is a sub-max aerobic test based on a HR; not a test of pure raw anaerobic ability. The mix of both aerobic & anaerobic talents make up the athlete's racing capabilities. HRE was correct in his example... Many top 5k runners never got to the top of the 10k ranks; many did.
Glycerin Runner wrote:
Clown? I'd beg to differ. His aerobic philosophy is a sound program, with enough credible success that anyone who can not seem to make the jump to the next level, may want to bank some aerobic HRM training for awhile. No different than what the kenyans are doing albeit by feel instead of HRMs.
Maybe I was too hard on him. His philosophy may be sound, I don't know. I read enough of his posts (several of them) to know that his logic and writing style are bad, I will commit to that.
Also, most lurkers and internet experts seem to be so sure about various party's training. I am never sure about it unless I hear it from that person, or see it in print multiple times from credible sources. Some kenyans may be doing as you say, but this thread is about Mutai's training and he is definitely NOT doing aerobic training at his maximum aerobic level that Maffetone talks about.
Look at the schedule: a lot of it states that he is running at 6:30-8:00 pace. Unless you are running at 25,000 ft altitude neither 6:30 nor 8:00 would be the Aerobic maximum that Maffetone espouses. So I am not saying that Mutai's training, or Maffetone's plan are wrong. I AM saying that they are not the same.
Of course, I am breaking my own rule by believing this confusing schedule. I.E. why would he do 1K reps at 10secs per mile slower than marathon pace? and mile reps at 20 secs slower? Again, many have claimed that these paces and workouts make sense because of the altitude. I don't buy it. I have run at 6000, 7000 and 8000 ft (and occasionally at 10,000ft) in California, various parts of Colorado, Alamosa, and North Carolina. It was harder but not that much harder. I can't see never running faster than 4:50 pace when you hope to race at 4:42-45 in a marathon.
Clearly, if he really is doing this training, or not, he knows more than I do as he is the one who is running at world leading levels. So I am not saying I know more than he does. I am saying I don't buy this sample week the way it was presented.
excoastranger wrote:
no sh#t sherlock wrote:The article says he does it for 45 weeks per year, and you write that you "deduce" it is his bread and butter training. Thanks Einstein.
Why not just say he does it for 45 weeks per year as the article says, and we can "deduce" it ourselves.
Do you come off like a jerk in your everyday life, or do you reserve that tone for anonymous message board barbs aimed at respected, accomplished old-school hammers who go out of their way to share their love of the sport and actually contribute something to the discussions?
Well said, excoastranger.
I've suspected for some years now that the point of training has shifted from racing fast to putting together a training plan that impresses people who claim to know about physiology.
The guy's run under 2:05. He knows what he's doing.
There are some who don't have to run fast in practice to run fast in races--Harald Norpoth comes to mind:
Glycerin Runner wrote:
Clown? I'd beg to differ. His aerobic philosophy is a sound program, with enough credible success that anyone who can not seem to make the jump to the next level, may want to bank some aerobic HRM training for awhile. No different than what the kenyans are doing albeit by feel instead of HRMs.
really? that's what you compare it to?
Maffetone seems to think a NUMERICAL formula is conducive to finding a hr range for everyone.
And then he wants you to stay under it!
That's retarded and so far away from what the Kenyans do that it's absurd to suggest otherwise.
sounds interesting. Care to elaborate on your suspicion?