Zero positive drug tests in Daegu. Really?

NativeSon,

Unfortunately you lost all credibility on the subject of doping when you declared Marion Jones clean several years ago.

Yes, if they're not among the top 30 in the world, they won't be in the testing pool. So you can live in Albuquerque as a 3:35 Kenyan man or 15:10 woman, and take whatever you like without the fear of a tester coming to your door. Just tell me where they're racing. Because it isn't in Zurich or Brussels, where anyone making serious money is racing. Sure, you can cheat and pick off road races that don't do testing and stay under the radar because you're not running fast enough to get in the pool. But explain to me how that effects what's going on at the World Championships.

I implore you to come up with a list of Kenyans who are not in the top 30 in their event, who train outside of Kenya, and who are racing in the Diamond League or World Championships.

Please, show me where I stated, "no East Africans are outside the top 30." There are hundreds. But they're not very good. It would be great to have testers stop by the home of every 2:13 Kenyan marathoner based in the US so we could check to see that no one was getting cheated out of prize money. But in the big scheme of things, how much money is that guy taking? A few hundred per race, maybe a few thousand for a marathon, at best?

The marathon is the only event where the depth is such that you can be reasonably good (2:09) and not in the top 30 in the world, but even then, If you're not good enough to be in the testing pool then you aren't going to be cheating anybody out of medals at the world championships or Olympic Games.

Successful troll is successful...

Jeff, I admire you allegiance to facts and logic. Hang in there, you're a distinct minority in this venue.

Not saying that every point you make is spot on or one that I agree with, but your informed input is refreshing and well worth the read.

New to this discussion, but I have a few things to say:

"But explain to me how that effects what's going on at the World Championships."

If one believes that drug use has benefits that last beyond the period of drug use itself (as I believe regarding steroids), then this year's WC's are affected by last year's drug use by those who were then outside the top 30.

"The marathon is the only event where the depth is such that you can be reasonably good (2:09) and not in the top 30 in the world..."

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. Jimmy Vicaut is ranked 31st this year in the 100m, yet finished 6th in the WC final. Guys ranked even lower than him--Ouhadi, Burns, Martina, Forsythe, Aikines-Aryeetey, for example--have run in big-name 100m races this summer, where there was prize money involved. These guys are "reasonably good" by objective measures and yet not ranked within the top 30.

Can you explain what you mean, or re-phrase?

Just because he has your respect doesn't mean he's earned mine as an authority on this subject. Especially when he trots out the same old red herrings and misdirects.

FogRunner wrote:

"Buddy?" Is that how you adress a respected coach? "Buddy..." No need to answer, just apologize.

As was covered by someone else, the benefits don't end magically when the athlete becomes clean enough to pass testing protocols. The top 30 in any event doesn't remain static from year to year. What is going on below the hallowed top-30 level perpetuates a climate and culture of PED worship that doesn't just magically vaporize once athletes ascend into the ethereal top-30 realm. The stakes only get higher and possibilities expand. And then there's still the pesky items like masking agents, designer PEDs that are undetectable, tip-offs to testing schedule, and so on. Those things aid those who are tested out-of-competition far less often (i.e. by WADA alone, at best) than it would those who are tested on a more frequent basis (e.g. WADA plus USADA).

This year? Last year? Two years ago? Three years ago? Is there necessarily a disconnect between athletes racing in the Diamond League or World Champs in 2011 and their ranking in 2005-2010? Do you believe that Ramzi first doped in 2008?

Anyway, for 2010, Abel Kirui (gold in the marathon at the World Champs), David Tumo (5th), and Benjamin Kiptoo (DNF) were all outside of the top 30 in the marathon. That's 60% of the men's Kenyan marathon team and that's just for one event. Get the picture, yet?

So the ones who are in the top 30 were never outside the top 30 while they have been active competitors? Huh?

The marathon is the only event where the depth is such that you can be reasonably good (2:09) and not in the top 30 in the world, but even then, If you're not good enough to be in the testing pool then you aren't going to be cheating anybody out of medals at the world championships or Olympic Games.[/quote] See the gold medalist in the men's marathon at the 2011 World Champs above. I know it's a fond mythology of apologists the world over, presuming that if everyone is tested "equally" (though there is no realistic assurance that this is truly the case) then all must be equally clean. It's the benighted corollary of the much loved "if everyone is doping anyway then it's a level playing field." It's so simplistic and illogical, wholly (willfully?) ignorant of both physiology and psychology and, well, reality.

Keepin it real wrote:

NativeSon,

Unfortunately you lost all credibility on the subject of doping when you declared Marion Jones clean several years ago.

The kid's a fanboy, I expect nothing better.

I have to guess it's a short list of athletes who weren't in the top 30 and not covered by an independent agency that factored into the final results.

You can run 2:09 and win a good amount of money at the right race. Burns, Martina, Forsythe, Aikines-Aryeetey aren't making much on prize money. Besides, it's not like Vicault, Martina, Forsythe or Aikines-Areety don't have their own national anti-doping associations to report to.

Sure, a guy from São Tomé could theoretically buy performance enhancing drugs, use them, become a world class sprinter and earn significant income, but at that point he gets himself into the pool, and runs the risk of testing positive when the testers come to his door, or at an in-competition test, as happened to LaVerne Jones.

Reason for this claim? You must have staggering evidence to support your statement that there is a "climate and culture of PED worship" among those athletes not among the very best in the world.

For which people can and do test positive

Which aren't free, and now are being stored in the samples of their users for future testing

Evidence of this in the modern age? Or is this all just speculation? I'd like to know how you know there are moles in WADA. Especially since the moles you speak of were unable to tip off the Russians that Tomashova, Chizenko and Soboleva were the subjects of targeted testing.

And tested more than four times last year out of comp

Tumo got himself into the mix with his win in Dubai.

Kiptoo's been doing well for himself, and after this year will surely find himself in the mix.

What's your point? That Kenya has the best depth in the world in the marathon? That's not being contested. But those guys you listed were either in the testing pool (as a defending world champion should be) or will now find themselves in the pool because of this year's results. Besides, I acknowledged that the marathon is unique as it's an event that you can earn a living on prize money without being among the world's very best. Try doing that as a 5000m runner.

Explain how you envision this working out for the up and comers.

See the aforementioned PDF.

There's no real assurance that Apollo 11 made it to the moon. But, given the size, scope and number of independent parts that would all need to come together in order to achieve such a hoax, it's unlikely that the published accounts are false.

Random out of competition testing creates an environment where taking illegal substances and subverting tests carry great risks. Anyone with any experience in the testing program will attest to that.

Ok, I'm convinced! Got room in that pile of sand for another head?

Snortner wrote:

Because everyone is clean!

Say that with a big smile and toss your hat like in the opening trailer of the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

KnowitAll, I think it's better you change your nickname in KnowitNothing. A part your stupid hicubrations about the possibility the marathon runners can be under doping (and, occasionally, Abel Kirui is an athlete I'm coaching), I repeat what already I wrote before : IT'S CLEAR YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE RULES OF ANTIDOPING, AND ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN AFRICAN COUNTRIES.

If you are a World Champion or o World Record Holder (in the past it was the case of Shaheen, and now the case of Kenenisa Bekele), IN ANY CASE YOU ARE TESTED FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS (also if you don't compete) AFTER WINNING THE TITLE.

So, in the case of Abel, he was tested 4 times out of competition in 2010, and 3 times before WCh this year (plus the test from USADA after running 30 km in Eugene with Moses Mosop).

The fact that in the list of IAAF regarding the number of tests Kenya is in one of the top positions with 85 tests out of competition in 2010 (and of course with nobody positive), doesn't have for you any sense ?

The fact is that you don't love sport, don't know sport, and probably don't understand sport. The real values at the base if the top performances (hard training, big motivation, will to change your life using fairness and friendship, and of course a good project of training and feeling, under human point of view, with coach and ambience around) for you are something unknown. In your idea of sport, there is only the room for people cheating and looking for economical advantages.

It seems to me that this is the portrayt of the World of Business. And, sometimes, sport can also become a business, but never a business can become a sport.

About Abel Kirui, I can only tell you one thing : he's one of the few athletes really happy when another athlete is able running fast. He doesn't know what envy is (probably on the contrary of you), and is a wonderful person with his family, his Country, his friends, his management, his coach.

If you have this idea only about athletics, I feel pity for you.

You really expect me to just overlook your very obvious conflict of interest? I see someone who's solely interested in advantages for the athletes who pay him. You can hate on me and hurl insults at me as much as you wish because it doesn't bother me at all, but there's one thing I certainly never have been nor ever will be: dirty. The Lance Armstrong style defense is more hollow than ever. Italian, Spanish, Portugese coaches haven't earned that reputation for nothing.

You sound just like Eddy Hellebuyck.

it sounds like people are getting smarter. And yes, epo can be run in microdoses at night at about 500iu for weeks and be clean for any test. IGF-1LR3 is the HGH replacement (it's what hgh is converted to and ironically isn't tested)

The only people who test positive anymore are the ones who are too stupid to do a little Internet research on how to use it.

Simone Alves da Silva has now tested positive, but since she didn't actually participate in Daegu, I guess the score is still zero.

Canova you are full of s.h.i.t. You take talented kenyan runners invest a few grand in a doping program for them and them take 40% of their winnings from prize money and appearance fees. You are a hypocrit saying that people in kenya get tested that much. One problem is that they are tipped when the anti-doping agency will come and they all miraculously dissapear in some villages and hide there for a few days. This makes everyone happy, no one uses drugs this days because it is imoral :))) , let aside that the kenyans will starve and this is one of their only ways to get out of poverty. You are a good coach but you always argue with everyone that drugs are not used at all and this seems to show your insecurity! so with all the respect f off

Samsung mandated in their bid that no drug testing be done at the 2011 IAAF Outdoor WC in order to avoid their brand name from being smeared. Korean WON is a powerful currency.

You'll notice that, unlike Osaka, no "zero positive tests" announcement has been released.