Zero positive drug tests in Daegu. Really?

Again, all of those federations lack the funding to test to an equivalent (the operative term I have used all along) level as USADA. This is, in part, why so many Kenyans, et al, base themselves in places like Albuquerque. Kenya Anti-Doping Agency, JADCO, etc. lack the funding to send testers overseas on a regular basis, or even conduct any significant out-of-competition testing (Mullings was caught by JADCO only at the Jamaican national meet). Ethiopia has no listed national anti-doping organization at that first link. Americans are under far more scrutiny for out-of-competition testing than most of their foreign counterparts are. I don't say this with any trace of nationalist pride or fervor, it comes down to the fact of what our federation's budget can accommodate and what others' simply cannot. It's already been pointed out clearly via GDP differences on this thread

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=4212297&id=4213487#4213487

That said, it doesn't mean that the corporate-supported coaches and handlers for US athletes aren't ensuring that they stay ahead of testing via science and not merely logistics, not at all.

KnowItAll wrote:

Again, all of those federations lack the funding to test to an equivalent (the operative term I have used all along) level as USADA. This is, in part, why so many Kenyans, et al, base themselves in places like Albuquerque

Which Kenyans, among the top 30 in the world in their event, are based out of Albuquerque? Most of the Kenyans that I know are based out of New Mexico wouldn't be in the testing pool no matter where they are.

Besides, simply leaving your home country doesn't absolve you of out of competition tests. It's not as if Daniel Bailey is not going to get tested because he trains in Jamaica. Veronica Campbell-Brown lives year round in America, and she's subject to testing year round. Kenyans that go to Europe for summer have out of competition tests. Every top athlete needs to update the IAAF as to where they're going to be every day of the year, and they have to update them with any changes to the schedule. Yes, Ethiopia, one of the poorest nations on earth, isn't funding an independent anti-doping organization, but that's what IAAF/WADA testers are for.

KnowItAll wrote:

Americans are under far more scrutiny for out-of-competition testing than most of their foreign counterparts are. I don't say this with any trace of nationalist pride or fervor, it comes down to the fact of what our federation's budget can accommodate and what others' simply cannot.

Then with all this available testing, why was it the Americans who almost destroyed T&F (Balco doping scandal) and how come it's the foreigners who have put it back on the map?

'why so many Kenyans, et al, base themselves in places like Albuquerque. Kenya Anti-Doping Agency, JADCO, etc. lack the funding to send testers overseas on a regular basis, or even conduct any significant out-of-competition testing (Mullings was caught by JADCO only at the Jamaican national meet). Ethiopia has no listed national anti-doping organization at that first link.'

Ethiopians and Kenyans are tested out of competition as much as athletes from other countries:

http://www.iaaf.org/antidoping/statistics/index.html

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Antidoping/TestingStatistics/05/94/35/20110301092933_httppostedfile_IAAF_015F-1_REV1_IAAFOOCTListofAthletes-110301_23693.pdf

It's clear you don't know the IAAF rules about tests.

All the athletes, from any Country, that are in top 30 in the World, or athletes particularly important (as in the past was with Shaheen and now with Bekele, that couldn't be in the list of top 30 having an year off) need to fill, every 3 months, a form called WHEREABOUTS, where have to inform the IAAF antidoping (that can infor WADA and/or National Federations having their own antidoping organisation) where they are EVERY DAY, giving a daily window of 1 hour during which they need to stay exactly where they are (may be in the hotel, or at home, or on the track, in any case exactly where they wrote). So, for all the top athletes in the World, there is ALWAYS the must of their traceableness.

This is the only reason because sometime I'm worry about Kenyans. Many times they go home (only for one day) for different reasons (family problems, celebrations, sudden changes of programs, etc...) and is very difficult for their mentality to inform their management to send immediately some update to IAAF.

The IAAF antidoping, and the WADA, go to test athletes also in the Countries they use for training. When I was the coach of Qatar, we were tested in Kenya, in Switzerland, in South Africa, in Germany, in Marocco, everywhere we had training camp, according to the whereabouts of the athletes.

So, please, stop thinking there is a different treatment regarding different Countries.

The fact, for example, Kenyan Federation didn't provide for tests during Kenyan Trials, of course is something wrong, but doesn't have nothing to do with the out of competitions controls, that are task of IAAF and WADA.

And I can assure that we have in Iten more test than in every other Country. This for a very simple reason : in this area, there are not less of 100 athletes in top 30 in the World in several events.

I knew all that, buddy. This goes well beyond the top 30 in the world. And of course this goes beyond truly random out-of-competition testing, that is testers showing up with essentially zero advance notice. Oh but you know about masking agents and pay-offs to get more advance notice, don't you?

Whaaaat? wrote:

KnowItAll wrote:

Americans are under far more scrutiny for out-of-competition testing than most of their foreign counterparts are. I don't say this with any trace of nationalist pride or fervor, it comes down to the fact of what our federation's budget can accommodate and what others' simply cannot.

Then with all this available testing, why was it the Americans who almost destroyed T&F (Balco doping scandal) and how come it's the foreigners who have put it back on the map?

Nothing gets past you, does it?

And do you think masking agents can be a practice for African athletes ? It's clear if you know something about doping controls, you don't know anything about life in Africa (money they have, organisation they don't have, mentality against any pharmacological support, type of common sickness they have, etc.)

Rdftrffgrd wrote:

When Ben Johnson tested positive, it took a couple of days only to announce it... The championship were not even finished. Not years... Procedure has changes since then, but...

I think they even had a second medal ceremony to present Carl Lewis with the Gold at the Games.

I think the lawyers are much more involved now and procedures have a lot more bureaucracy.

B samples should not be announced until A samples are confirmed but the results seem to get leaked sometimes.

I don't believe you will ever have a Ben Johnson deal again, where the athlete is DQed within days of the test.

Renato Canova wrote:

And do you think masking agents can be a practice for African athletes ? It's clear if you know something about doping controls, you don't know anything about life in Africa (money they have, organisation they don't have, mentality against any pharmacological support, type of common sickness they have, etc.)

Renato, I have tons of respect for you and all that you do, but the excuses that you gave against doping are tired, worn-out and wrong. Listen, everyone talks about how poverty stricken Kenyans are. Seems to me, they have a lot at stake and some would be willing to get an advantage. Athletes like Merga race with unscrupulous tactics. Athletes like Lagat and Cherono switch national allegiance (even though Kenyan culture is very "nationalistic" according to Tanser and other Kenyan apologists) for monetary reasons (whether marketability, easier chance to make teams, straight cash, etc.). So it is not a stretch that some, or many, dope.

Renato Canova wrote:

And do you think masking agents can be a practice for African athletes ? It's clear if you know something about doping controls, you don't know anything about life in Africa (money they have, organisation they don't have, mentality against any pharmacological support, type of common sickness they have, etc.)

Not to mention their agents and coaches who have all taken vows of poverty, right? You're not slipping that wool over my eyes, pal.

How's the view from the corner you've got yourself boxed in?

It looks down on you, predictably enough.

deraylicious wrote:

Renato, I have tons of respect for you and all that you do, but the excuses that you gave against doping are tired, worn-out and wrong. Listen, everyone talks about how poverty stricken Kenyans are. Seems to me, they have a lot at stake and some would be willing to get an advantage. Athletes like Merga race with unscrupulous tactics. Athletes like Lagat and Cherono switch national allegiance (even though Kenyan culture is very "nationalistic" according to Tanser and other Kenyan apologists) for monetary reasons (whether marketability, easier chance to make teams, straight cash, etc.). So it is not a stretch that some, or many, dope.

Hey look everyone it's the "liberal" guy who wants to kill off social security. Now he is bashing Africans and saying many likely dope because, you know, they are desperate and poor, and you know, that Merga guy throws elbows.

Yes, he displays his wondrous critical thinking skills again!

KnowItAll wrote:

It looks down on you, predictably enough.

Where are you getting your facts from?

You insinuated that athletes can escape their out of comp testing by traveling outside their home country, citing Kenyans training in Albuquerque. That was proven false, both because the IAAF records of testing clearly show athletes based outside their countries of affiliations being subject to testing, and because you failed to name a single Kenyan among the top 30 in the world in any event who is based out of Albuquerque.

Then you claimed that Kenyans and Ethiopians, by virtue of their location in the globe and relative poverty of their nations, aren't subject to the same level of testing as Americans and Europeans. That was proven false by the IAAF publication which shows that Kenyans and Ethiopians among the top 30 in the world receive out of competition tests to the same degree as western athletes.

And when faced with the fact that all the top athletes (the ones in the testing pool) must make themselves available for testing for at least one hour of everyday, no matter where they are, and must give notice for any changes in location, you wrote:

"I knew all that, buddy. This goes well beyond the top 30 in the world. And of course this goes beyond truly random out-of-competition testing, that is testers showing up with essentially zero advance notice. Oh but you know about masking agents and pay-offs to get more advance notice, don't you?"

So that would seem to make moot any previous points you had made: it's not about the existence or non-existence of a USADA-like organization in Kenya or Ethiopia, it's not about fleeing your home nation to avoid doping, it's not about the remoteness of East Africa making out-of-comp testing too expensive or logistically difficult. You then come out and say that none of those supposed explanations that you had offered (as fact) had any bearing on the present doping situation, but rather "masking agents" cover all (despite the fact Mullings just tested positive for one) and that those involved with the sport bribe the testers and the anti-doping agencies to get a lead up on the test. If you had any reason to believe that, why wouldn't you have just said so at the outset of this thread? Instead, you seem to be grasping at straws. It's as if the police have found your acquaintance dead, and after every alibi you've offered has been proven false, you simply claim that someone must have planted the evidence against you.

All this seems to make your choice of username an ironic one.

....and this too.

http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/Antidoping/TestingStatistics/05/94/35/20110301092933_httppostedfile_IAAF_015F-1_REV1_IAAFOOCTListofAthletes-110301_23693.pdf

It's too bad if this is keeping you up nights, Wigand. You're still confused, if it's any consolation.

You are combining separate ideas and conveniently leaving out or overlooking others. The fact that they are outside of the top 30 is precisely why they would want to be as far away from the Kenyan federation testers as possible. WADA won't have an interest in them and KADA cannot reach them. Oh and no Ethiopian anti-doping agency exists.

For those in the top 30, sure. But there are a whole lot of Kenyans and Ethiopians outside of the top 30. Are you ignorant of that fact? Are you also ignorant of the fact that there are Americans outside of the top 30 who are indeed subject to testing from USADA and don't head overseas to training bases that might conveniently beyond the reach of USADA? You seem to be wholly ignorant that the sport does exist outside of the top 30 in the world.

And yet you are clearly unable to address any concept or argument to that end, sticking rigidly to your parroting of the top 30 myopia.

I guess when you have nothing left you stretch for anecdotal evidence (Mullings) in a desperate attempt to make a wider point. Sure, you're exactly right, no East Africans are outside the top 30, none who are outside the geographical/logistical reach of their home federation's testers would dope and certainly they wouldn't use masking agents, absolutely none in the top 30 would use masking agents, none in the top 30 have ever been tipped off to an upcoming test, and none of that matters because none in the top 30 (well, those who haven't tested positive) would dope, anyway. Just go back to burying your head in the sand and let the sport continue to devolve into a circus of pharmaceutically-enhanced freaks. It's more fun that way, right?

Only if you employed it. You're once again confused, Wigand. When you have learned much more about the sport then we might be able to revisit this conversation.

"Buddy?" Is that how you adress a respected coach? "Buddy..." No need to answer, just apologize.

Mr. Know it all....you think you know but with all due respect you don't know shit!