5000m Specialists: What Is The Fastest You Need To Do In Training?

Bob- What could you run for 400m?

well. wrote:

Training at 5k and 3k pace is also aerobic training, not "speedwork".

Skuj wrote:

I think you are the first runners (? :) I have come acrross who is saying that 6x800m at 3k pace with short recovery or 3x1600m at 5k pace with 3-4min recovery is NOT speedwork!

The first fellow is right. 3K pace is aerobic capacity training, not speed work. Now when you're training for a 5K, 3K pace is faster than goal pace, but that does not make it speed work. Speed work is defined as maximum effort sprinting, i.e. flying 30m, etc.

At what point in that Olympic Gold winning 5000 did you feel that you had it won?

iCoach wrote:

The first fellow is right. 3K pace is aerobic capacity training, not speed work. Now when you're training for a 5K, 3K pace is faster than goal pace, but that does not make it speed work. Speed work is defined as maximum effort sprinting, i.e. flying 30m, etc.

HILARIOUS. Hey guys 800s at 3k pace isn't speedwork. Its, er, ...what is it called iCoach? Oh yes. Aerobic capacity.

eojtlc wrote:

And skuj, don't feed the trolls. This has the potential to be a very good training thread and they are trying to ruin it with silly and flimsy arguments, don't let them win.

Yeah i'll take this advice too. This thread has Bob Schull in it ffs!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep up the good work boys.

Gotcha! (But perhaps some people really believe that these things are not commonly referred to as "speedwork"?)

eojtlc wrote:

flyswatta,

You are an athlete who gets it, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You also articulated your thoughts better than I believe I have.

You mention that coaches were amazed at what you did off mileage and hill sprints, were you going outside your coaches program? If so, where did you learn/how did you figure out these lessons?

For me it came through years of working with different coaches, doing exactly what they said, and then trying to figure out why I ran so much better when I wasn't "training as hard".

And skuj, don't feed the trolls. This has the potential to be a very good training thread and they are trying to ruin it with silly and flimsy arguments, don't let them win.

Fascinating! Do you think your posture changed with this core training? ie Everything suddenly became much more efficient?

Thanks for this Bob. I imagine that you were doing these 20x400m at about 1500m/Mile pace. ?? How much of your work was faster than that pace? And I love the last comment here. If you ain't feeling well at the bell, all the "sprint" training in the world won't mean a thing.

Bob Schul wrote:

Interesting thread. I agree with the people who say you must use various speeds in training. As most of you know by now I trained on a grass field in 63-64 and did distances of 100-400 meters. Different speeds and many were build-ups starting what I called fresh and goes to very good and sometimes hard but never all-out.

When I ran 400's on the schools cinder track I ran 20 x 400 which was a great inprovement over what I could do when I was with Igloi. I ran three in 60 and each fourth in 58. Interval was 60 walk and 60 jog, back to the start.

You only have a sprint at the end of a race if you are feeling good. My :38.7 in Tokyo was only able because I felt very good with 400 to go.

Is that really Bob Schul? Is he known to post on LRC with his name registered?

Anyway, if so it's an honor. A couple of those workouts you describe were things I did in high school, obviously not quite as fast. My coach would use Igloi inspired workouts from time to time.

Also, I read your Wikipedia profile (I already knew who you were) and they claim your last 300 in Tokyo was 37.8, either way it ridicules on a wet cinder track.

Amen to the hill work, I always ran best of 2 hill sessions a week with the rest of the week very easy. One hill session short hills the other long hills .

" theres gold in them thar hills"

I have Mr. Schuls training book....... Very good stuff....

Autographed too.... check it out

Answer to questions. When I went to college I was needed in the 4 x 200 and the 4 x 400 as a freshman. Looking back it taught me how to sprint. I was timed in :48.8 in relay and did run :50 out of the blocks. I believe in 64 I could have run faster. I continued in the 4 X 440 as a sophomore before I went in the Air Force.

I was extremely worried down th back stretch when I was running all out and wasn't catching Jazy. When I passed Norpoth I saw I was gaining on Jazy and still felt good. With about 140 to go I believed I was going to catch him as he was starting to tie up.

One thing I didn't mention was I always ran the 20th 440 all out and always throughout the spring and summer ran :54 something.

I thought about running more 440's but decided against it. I believe I could have done a few more since I did run the :54.

My workouts were series of different distances including 100, 150, 200, 300 and 400 yards. None were timed and they were approximate distances.(except for those 400's run on the cinder track) It didn't matter as my only concern was placing stress on the body. At times, when I was becoming tired it also placed stress on my mental part of running which ws helpful when I did have a tough race and had to drive my body through tired periods. (Which at times meant the remainder of the race) This part of training should not be forgotten.

All the distances I ran in training as mentioned above were at different speeds, even within the set. For instance I would run 8 x 200, 1 fresh, 2 good build up and one hard. Then do 10 x 100 and start another set. That set was based on how I felt and also if it was an easy, medium or hard day. Nothing was set before the workout and not until I finished a set did I decide what I would run next.

Interesting thread and posts. Just a couple of observations from my high school coaching- hoping for some feedback as well.

Our winter off season is four months with no indoor track races. The winter can be harsh- lots of snow/ice and we have limited outdoor areas to run. However, our kids dutifully go out and plug away, even in 0 degree weather. My point- they train consistently. We focus on 1 long run a week (25% of weekly volume) and only run 5 days a week. When we can, we will run 1 tempo run a week. This is usually 3 - 6 miles at a quick even pace. Again, because of the weather- we don't get one of these in every week. We rarely even get in strides because the track/sidewalks are covered in snow/ice and I refuse to train indoors.

Now, before track starts we run a 1600M time trial. Our kids run to within a few seconds of their PR or they PR. No one tanks it and everyone feels good about the performance. Doesn't matter on the performance level- from 6:00 runners to 4:30 runners.

I always get excited, we do a traditional 1600/3200 training plan, using Jack Daniels training paces, and the kids improve. For example, I kid that runs 4:39 runs 4:29. A girl that runs 5:25 runs 5:15. On average, about a 10 second improvement from March 1 to May 30th. However..... I always feel let down by the improvement. Is 10 second improvement in 3 months good? As I write this, I think it isn't bad. But, I always feel like a 15 second improvement is possible but we blow it.

I haven't had the guts to try this, but I wonder what would happen if we didn't do any speedwork? If all we did was just work on becoming aerobic monsters, do tempos and a steady state runs, throw in some hills and strides and the end of a workout..... would we improve the same or would we run faster?

This may be beyond the scope of the thread, but am just curious to hear people's thoughts.

We're talking about 5k's here! wrote:

Just another name wrote:

That is not what Coe & Martin recommend. You may be convinced of this, but C&M would be convinced you are wrong. Coe, in particular, touted often touching on all speeds during training. He clearly understood the value of sprint work and its place in a complete training program.

I guess this is why Coe was so mediocre in all events over the mile.

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But he wasn't mediocre in events above the mile, that is based on his one 5000m race where he ran 14.06 on his own, in a minor race.

Aouita and El Gerrouj adapted his training priciples as did mnay others, with individual variations to suit their own strengths and weaknesses. Coe's training was influenced by many of the great runners who went before him. It's common sense that you have to train at every pace in the right amount at the right time.

J.O. wrote:

We're talking about 5k's here! wrote:

I guess this is why Coe was so mediocre in all events over the mile.

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But he wasn't mediocre in events above the mile, that is based on his one 5000m race where he ran 14.06 on his own, in a minor race.

Coe never even ran a decent 3000 in his career.

lol@tards.. wrote:

Coe never even ran a decent 3000 in his career.

That's like saying Michael Johnson never ran a decent 800.

Anyway, 7:54 is not too shabby in my book. :)

eojtlc wrote:

Is that really Bob Schul? Is he known to post on LRC with his name registered?

Anyway, if so it's an honor. A couple of those workouts you describe were things I did in high school, obviously not quite as fast. My coach would use Igloi inspired workouts from time to time.

Also, I read your Wikipedia profile (I already knew who you were) and they claim your last 300 in Tokyo was 37.8, either way it ridicules on a wet cinder track.

Yeah, His Bobness has posted here lots.

So, how old are these people?And....5 days a week, 1 long, sometimes 1 tempo 3-6 miles, what about the other runs?I'm always inclined to say that young runners should not overspecialize, and instead of regular hardass interval type work, they should do what is required to build a base and have fun so that when they ARE ready for the harder training at 17-18, they WANT to do it. Too often I've seen kids quit at 17-18 because the life has been knocked out of them with intervals. The "quick fix".