5000m Specialists: What Is The Fastest You Need To Do In Training?

faster than J.O. wrote:

J.O. wrote:

Another poster denying the importance of kicking flat out at the end of workouts.

Look guys, you can only use your kick at the end of a race if you practice doing just that. You always have your fastest twitch fibers there waiting to be used in the last 200-300m but learning to kick hard at the end of a hard race require specific training.

Keep on spending all that training time working on your 8th place "kick".

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Keep on missing the point that you have to train at every pace to be a winner. And you have to fight very hard at the end of a race to beat a rival.

I agree, this is a thread comprising mostly posts from not very serious runners.

How the heck can they imagine that you don't train for a fast last lap?

You don't need too much stuff faster than 1500 pace. A lot of threshold, a lot of 1500, 3k, and 5k race pace stuff. Some quick easy runs will help your threshold type stuff, which will give you the stamina to maintaint race pace over the distance. Race a 1500 or two as a rust buster before a 5k.

I tried not to over-think the speed work as far as racing 5K was concerned.

If I was strong enough aerobically I could even race myself into great 5K shape. My fastest 5K came on no speedwork what so ever. I just ran a series of races in the 5K, 5 mile (8K) and 10K range in the two months before. My fastest 5K came at the end of that string.

There was one workout that pretty well predicted my 5K potential though. A two mile time trial (hard but not all out)at 5K goal race pace. If I could do that, I could run 5K in a race at the same pace.

Just another name wrote:

The simple question is why wouldn't you do fast stuff as part of your training? It is not going to be harmful, won't take up much time, and could actually be beneficial. The only reason I can offer for not incorporating sprint work into your training would be laziness....okay, maybe ignorance too.

i'm dumber than you wrote:

This is why sprinters routinely go on 28 mile runs.

I don't know anyone who routinely does 28 mile runs. However, I am aware of world class sprinters who measure some of their runs in miles. :)

J.O. wrote:

I agree, this is a thread comprising mostly posts from not very serious runners.

Some people obviously didn't read eojtlc posts very carefully. I used to run 3:57 1500m and I can guarantee that he is/was much faster than that. Of course, JO and others are much faster still. :)

laker wrote:

There was one workout that pretty well predicted my 5K potential though. A two mile time trial (hard but not all out)at 5K goal race pace. If I could do that, I could run 5K in a race at the same pace.

Indeed, I've always believed that if you solo 60% to 80% of the distance in solo training scenarios, you will hit the pace on race day.

(I'm hoping for a sub 17:30 5k next weekend, hopefully my recent 10:2? 3000s in training are indicative? 4k in 14:10 last month also, but that hurt.)

For 99.9 percent of people the reason they never run close to their potential is because they didn't reach their aerobic potential. Until you get to an extremely high level (most will not) the person who wins is usually the strongest.

One can probably not run solely mileage and be a good racer at 5k. That being said, mileage and aerobic development should be the overwhelming focus of a runner's training program.

There are plenty of ways to develop speed without compromising the invaluable development of your aerobic system. Short hills sprints/flat 150's are highly effective following runs. Incorporating a a strength program (emphasizing glutes, hamstrings, quads, core...low weight high reps) is another good way to incorporate more muscle fibers.

I remember coming out to indoor meets and blowing my teammates, coaches, etc minds when I would crush the competition having only done mileage. Little did they know I had incorporated a strength program and had been doing hill sprints 3 days a week. Little did they know speed is so unimportant at any level below the top echelon.

Like has been said...the ability to "kick" has so much to do with not being destroyed. There are a number of ways to develop raw speed and efficiency at fast paces without compromising the limitlessly more important development of the aerobic system.

J.O. wrote:

How the heck can they imagine that you don't train for a fast last lap?

At Stanford, we spent a lot of time working on last-lap speed: it's how I turned high school studs into college duds. Thank goodness Vin showed up.

10/10 post, thanks.

I seem to recall Ovett winning some races and doing no speedwork in 85. ???

Training at 5k and 3k pace is also aerobic training, not "speedwork".

Skuj wrote:

If one follows the Coe-Martin zones model, I'm convinced that "aerobic capacity" is the fastest thing required for 5000m.

That is not what Coe & Martin recommend. You may be convinced of this, but C&M would be convinced you are wrong. Coe, in particular, touted often touching on all speeds during training. He clearly understood the value of sprint work and its place in a complete training program.

well. wrote:

Training at 5k and 3k pace is also aerobic training, not "speedwork".

I think you are the first runners (? :) I have come acrross who is saying that 6x800m at 3k pace with short recovery or 3x1600m at 5k pace with 3-4min recovery is NOT speedwork!

flyswatta,

You are an athlete who gets it, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You also articulated your thoughts better than I believe I have.

You mention that coaches were amazed at what you did off mileage and hill sprints, were you going outside your coaches program? If so, where did you learn/how did you figure out these lessons?

For me it came through years of working with different coaches, doing exactly what they said, and then trying to figure out why I ran so much better when I wasn't "training as hard".

And skuj, don't feed the trolls. This has the potential to be a very good training thread and they are trying to ruin it with silly and flimsy arguments, don't let them win.

Skuj wrote:

well. wrote:

Training at 5k and 3k pace is also aerobic training, not "speedwork".

I think you are the first runners (? :) I have come acrross who is saying that 6x800m at 3k pace with short recovery or 3x1600m at 5k pace with 3-4min recovery is NOT speedwork!

You are not working on your "speed" when you are doing those sessions. They are predominantely aerobic. Speed work are sessions like 200s with long rest, all out 60s, flying 30s etc.

For what its worth....

I ran my Pb (13:54) in early summer. Had two indoor 3k races, one 1500m. I did NO workouts at sub 14 pace, actually not even close. I ran one 5000m race (penn relays) and two 1500m races in the spring. I was very suprised to hit 3200 miles in 8:54 in my Pb race.

I had 50. 400 speed

Next season I did more speed, almost the same race prep and ran slower for 5K

I dont know what the secret is? I know I had relatively good speed, but training fast never realy helped me run fast. I was a fragile athlete and was never able to train very hard without getting injured. I did do a fair amount of hill workouts during the winter

eojtic,

In the indoor season I had a lot more control over my training as indoor track was not emphasized by my coach. As far as finding this information....I was definitely familiar with Lydiard and attempted to run bigger miles than I ever had in the past. What I found was that I was simply uncomfortable running more than 30-40 minutes honestly. I was a wheezing machine and I didn't know what to do. I had good mile and 800m PRs but not great and I always faltered above the 1mile distance.

So what did I do? I consulted other resources. I googled....Hicham el Guerrouj training and found what may or may have been a skeleton of el G's training. I think the link can still be found now through google.

I saw that supplemental training (core exercises, leg strengthening>for muscular endurance) was highly emphasized. When I say core and leg strength I do not mean a 15 minute core circuit at the end of a run as is popular in the U.S. The session I created combined exercises from here and there. I wanted each muscle group to be worked out with what I saw as the most conducive and effective exercise.

Like El G, I would strength train 3 times a week. I found that within two weeks all of a sudden my distance runs were so much more comfortable. I felt as if I "had something" in my legs. It's difficult to explain but for me I felt like I had achieved running enlightenment. I could finally run big mileage and I knew that I was getting far more fit than I had ever been in the past quickly.

I rolled out to the first indoor meet of the season. The year before I had finished 3rd at our state meet in the 1600. It was the first time I felt truly confident going into a race. Something about being able to comfortably run for 90 minutes makes you extremely confident. I had also begun to some 60m or so hill sprints after runs as I had seen a youtube video of some kenyans doing them. It just made sense.

Basically I won by 80 or so meters (low key meet) and ran about a second off my time from the previous years outdoor state meet.

I plateued during outdoors with all the 400 meter repeats and incessant "speed work."

BrooksJ wrote:

J.O. wrote:

How the heck can they imagine that you don't train for a fast last lap?

At Stanford, we spent a lot of time working on last-lap speed: it's how I turned high school studs into college duds. Thank goodness Vin showed up.

What planet are you guys on????

You need to train at every pace if you are a serious runner.

EVERY PACE GUYS, EVERY PACE.

SO YOU CAN WIN RACES AND NOT LOSE OUT IN THE FINAL SPRINT!!!!!

Just another name wrote:

That is not what Coe & Martin recommend. You may be convinced of this, but C&M would be convinced you are wrong. Coe, in particular, touted often touching on all speeds during training. He clearly understood the value of sprint work and its place in a complete training program.

I guess this is why Coe was so mediocre in all events over the mile.