Birth of democracy; Lessons from Egypt versus Iraq

We have no idea if Egypt will actually achieve democracy, much less keep it.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

We have no idea if Egypt will actually achieve democracy, much less keep it.

True. The same, of course, could be said of Iraq.

We make reference to "the people" as the source of the revolutionary moment, as if we really know who the people were.

That is all true but the point is the likely effectiveness and power of a movement toward democracy that comes from within versus something that is initiated from a foreign government.Can you imagine the colonies fighting for independence with the same determination if the Revolutionary War was Spain's idea.

deleuze wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

We have no idea if Egypt will actually achieve democracy, much less keep it.

True. The same, of course, could be said of Iraq.

We make reference to "the people" as the source of the revolutionary moment, as if we really know who the people were.

These are "interesting times" and what I wouldn't give for boredom and routine.

This mess in Egypt could prove to be a diasaster for America if it spreads throughout that region; third worlders aren't necessarily prepared to govern their own affairs by plurality. Hey, the 2000 election proved WE aren't so hot either, at times, so add Islamic Fundamentalism with a martyr complex and you've got a good start on a recipe for catastrophe.

I wonder if Israel hasn't already retargeted their nukes?

This is bad Sh*t.

Try pulling this stunt in Beijing, Caracas or Tehran.

I wonder in Hugo and Ahmadinejad aren't a bit restless right now?

The Chicom Army can pretty much handle any domestic issues; granted they need new tank treads now and then when they get gummed up with the entrails of pro-Democracy protestors.

And some wit asked if Bush The Lesser deserved the credit.

Good grief.

Uh Ohhhhhhhhhh wrote:Try pulling this stunt in Beijing, Caracas or Tehran.

Makes me wonder - what are the odds that news of the Egyptian revolution have made it through the great firewall?

Conundrum wrote:

That is all true but the point is the likely effectiveness and power of a movement toward democracy that comes from within versus something that is initiated from a foreign government.

Can you imagine the colonies fighting for independence with the same determination if the Revolutionary War was Spain's idea.

I agree with this, with the caveat that the situation is much more complex than internal interests vs. external interests--just as it was in our own founding moment, which in case people forgot, happened over two centuries ago even though we act like it was yesterday.

Conundrum wrote:

That is all true but the point is the likely effectiveness and power of a movement toward democracy that comes from within versus something that is initiated from a foreign government.

Your point may be true but by using Iraq and Egypt as your examples you have gotten your point way in front of your evidence.

I proffer some other considerations:

1) There was a pro-democracy movement in Iraq following the 1991 war. It was squashed by Saddam (with the use of chemical agents and helicopter gunships). Then President Bush (pere) did not intervene as he had decided to limit the role of the allies to removing the Iraqi army from Kuwait.

2) It did not appear that the military was willing to intervene. While Mubarak was not the nicest guy, he was not the brutal dictator that Saddam was. Did the Egyptian soccer team get tortured for losing a match? Egyptians had more freedom than Iraqis.

3) Egypt had not shown evidence of invading its neighbors in quite a while. Egypt has not been under UN sanctions for a decade.

I almost spewed water on my screen when VP Joe Biden (a man who once thought partitioning Iraq was the only way to go) called on the Iranians to rise up. Joe must have forgotten that they did rise up in June 2009 and the Obama Administration barely even gave lip service or support to the movement; a movement that was needing help. Of course, this time around, the Obama Administration make statements as did his SecState, but what was the message? Stay, go, stay until Sept?

Yep on page one of the Koran we get into this wonderful democracy, freedom and love and peace for the world. Where do you liberals come from. How could you be so out of touch with the truth.

There was a pro-democracy movement in Iraq following the 1991 war. It was squashed by Saddam (with the use of chemical agents and helicopter gunships). Then President Bush (pere) did not intervene as he had decided to limit the role of the allies to removing the Iraqi army from Kuwait (quote)

You’re clearly unaware that US led sanctions from 1991 was responsible for the death of so many Iraqi children, that the United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator, Dennis Halliday resigned characterising them as ‘genocide.’

“And above all, my innate sense of justice was and still is outraged by the violence that UN sanctions have brought upon, and continues to bring upon, the lives of children, families – the extended families, the loved ones of Iraq. There is no justification for killing the young people of Iraq, nor the aged, nor the sick, nor the rich, nor the poor.”

As for the consequences resulting from the US led invasion of 2003?

Well, two million Iraqis remain abroad as refugees from seven years of anarchy, with another 2 million internally displaced.

Ironically, almost all Iraqi Christians (safe under Saddam) have had to flee.

Under western rule, production of oil – Iraq's staple product – is still below its pre-invasion level, and homes enjoy fewer hours of electricity.

Some 200,000 civilians are estimated to have lost their lives from occupation-related violence.

The country has no stable government, minimal reconstruction, and daily deaths and kidnappings.

Endemic corruption is fuelled by unaudited aid.

Increasing Islamist rule leaves most women less, not more, liberated.

And all this is the result of a mind-boggling $751bn of US expenditure - surely the worst value for money in the history of modern diplomacy.