Tempo workout in the morning, followed by a speed workout in the afternoon. Why do some teams do this?

I'd think they'd be better if they were done on different days, ie with an easy run the morning of both.

I don't know of any teams or runners who do this. Could you give some examples?

In the oregon system, I've read of 4-5 mile tempo runs in the morning, followed by 8x300's in the afternoon. With vin lannana, in his presentation, I believe it was roughly the same concept, of a 4-6 miler in the morning, followed by some kind of 1500m pace workout in the afternoon. And then my buddy, whom is a sub 4 miler, told me about a workout they did which again is similar to those posted above, except I believe with 400's at "rep" pace in the afternoon. Those are the examples I've stumbled upon.

Anbessa

fesdesd wrote:

I'd think they'd be better if they were done on different days, ie with an easy run the morning of both.

Please explain why you think that is better?

Great idea, I may try that.

I've always noticed that when I'm well rested for a race or workout, I can run hard even the next day. I often surprise myself with being able to knock out a fast long run the day after a mile race, for example.

Likewise, when I have a morning workout, occasionally for my afternoon run I'll pick things up a little rather than just making it a jog and I feel fine. It's almost like doubling at a track meet except with a bigger recovery window in between.

I think it would be better to get 2 harder efforts in one day than on back to back days. Workout 8 a.m., workout 3 p.m. would be similar to doubling in a track meet.

I think that they all have their place. Doing 3 workouts a week using the hard easy method can lead to plateaus. Stuff like back to back work out days help not only with getting 2 quality workouts during a week with a race. This can help with running rounds of a meet. Running tempo in the morning and reps in the evening breaks up monotony of training and puts 2 quality efforts into one day. This can potentially get 4 quality efforts into one week.

Here's something from the most useful thread in LetsRun history and information posted by the best poster in LetsRun history:

Notice Thursday.

posted by oldsub4...

Monday

AM 4

PM 8 + drills

Tuesday

PM LT workout -- 4-6 * longer interval 800-1600

Wednesday

AM 4

PM 8 + drills

Thursday

AM Tempo 4-6 miles warmup and cooldown

PM 5 * 200 or 300 cutdowns

"but on the tempo day would do two workouts, one tempo and the other a sprint workout--opposite ends of the spectrum and while you never felt fresh you never really got injured off this either."

Friday

AM 4

PM 8 + drills

Saturday

Hill repeats, something faster like 1600-1200-800-600-400 OR

1200 - 5 mile slower tempo - 1200 cutdown

Sunday

am 16 miles slow

This guy also said he was I think a 1:46 800 guy and he had two training partners faster.

Doubles like that work great for middle distance guys. If you do the Tempo properly you should feel pretty loose and fresh in the afternoon. Be sure to Eat a light lunch.

9am tempo 4pm repeats

Now that I have less time because of my work and life I combine them into one.

2 mile warm-up

4 mile tempo

1 mile easy

6x200 mile pace 30 sec rest

2 mile cool down

In daniels running formula he says you should

feel pretty good after a tempo run if you did it

right. So doing some speed 8 hrs later should be

no problem.

Last year I used this a few times with success.

I would do a progression or tempo run at 9am

and then I would do 3x2x200m at 30 and 27 at

6pm on the track. If you run the tempo correctly

you should have a lot left in the legs for the track.

Anbessa wrote:

I've read a few training books, have seen some presentations on some good college teams, and even have a few friends that attend very strong track schools. My question is, from each of these sources, I've seen the common idea of having some type of tempo workout in the morning, and then coming back later in the afternoon for a speed workout. My question is, what is the logic behind this? I'm not saying the answer has to be some profound finding, but I would like to understand the reason why some coach's do it. Thanks!

Anbessa

The logic behind this is that they've found it to work for them.

Relax and find what works for you. Trial and error.

Right, but when it's done on multiple teams/athletes, that's clearly more of an idea that works for MOST people, and not so much of a trial and error per individual. That's why i'm wondering the actual logic behind doing it... is it mimicking qualifying rounds? Is it making you run mile pace (or whatever speed) on tired legs, to serve a purpose? This is what I'd like to find out.

Anbessa

i don't see a problem with doing intervals later in the day.

heck, where i'm at, we do a 4 mile tempo get 8 minutes rest and do another 1-2 miles of intervals on the track. it's tough, but it's a dang good workout.

I often do 8 x hill repeats hard and then a short recovery jog over to the track for 8 x 400m/w 200 Rjog all as part of the same workout. This way I can still get in a medium long run (13 miles) and a long repeat workout ( 1,2,3 mile repeats) as well as a Long run (20 miles) in one week.

one thing it does do is help prepare for days you do doubles.

Same as doing a tempo on one day and Vo2 max the second day help prepare you for trials and finals in a 1500 or 5000 championship setting.

I think it is a great idea, especially during competition season. It is hard to get a speed session and a aerobic session in along with a race and long run all in the same week.

In the beginning of the season I would do something like:

AM: 1 easy, 4 miles @ 5:30, 1 easy

PM: 1 easy, 5x1000 @ 3:07, 1 easy

and later in the season:

AM: 1 easy, 4 miles @ 5:20, 1 easy

PM: Something like 1 easy, 8x300 cut down or hill repeats, 1 easy

I'm more of a mid-d guy.

1:55/3:56

I feel that it can be a good workout. The problem comes that it can be too much effort for those who are developed as much.

I had my college athletes do the tempo workout in the pool in the am and the 300 type workout on the track in the afternoon. The pool workout was aimed at getting 25+ minutes of a heart rate 165 or higher for most, knowing that the pool has around a 10% effect on lowering heartrate.

Our men's team made nationals and the women's team had huge break throughs as well during the track season.

This workout - tempo in the morning, 300's in afternoon - was done at Stanford under Vin and on the Farm Team (for those of you old enough to remember). The workout serves two purposes.

1. The problem with Tempo Runs is most top runners do them too fast. I often remember out on Sawyer Camp trail knocking out 5 min miles off the back. An afternoon session puts the tempo in perspective and helps the runner keep things under control. Another way to do this, is run with no mile markers and go off effort. However this often became an XC type race as guys who were feeling good pushed the pace and took the pack with them.

On a side note, there may be less races on the schedules but many times a "tempo" is an unofficial race on the calendar.

2. Great way to get in some more mileage with the extra recovery. After your tempo you cool down... But coming back in the afternoon you have another 2-3 mile warm-up, strides, 8 x 300 with a 100 jog, and a 2-3 mile cool down. That is another 8 miles for the day.

Some people throw in some fast stuff following the tempo...we did that too on the Farm. But this way your legs are better prepared for some good turnover work. It is a short 60 min or less workout that teaches you to run fast while tired from a morning session.

Funnily enough I have done this by accident a few times and it's never been a problem. I'm an old geezer and like to train with my club on Tuesday evenings, but I never quite know how much homework the kids will bring home. So a few times I've gone out hard at lunchtime (usually long reps or tempo); got home; found kids want to train; then ended up getting drawn into some work. In the evening I would do speed with plenty of recovery, hurdles drills etc.

Likewise, if time is tight I'd rather do weights the evening after a major workout, rather than the next day. If you're already committed to an easy day afterwards, nothing wrong with stacking up different kinds of hard stuff on the hard day.