Coe Ovett Cram videos

and here are the heats and semis from the 800m

plus interviews

so cool!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYAB69316i0&feature=related

its still hard to believe Ovett lost the 1500

carrickfergus wrote:

its still hard to believe Ovett lost the 1500

Not really, when you consider Coe's last 100m was 12.1; faster than any last 100m in a championship race before or since that day. Ovett's last 100m in the 800 final was 12.7! Ovett sorely under-estimated Coe's finishing kick, and Ovett had never really been in a race before when someone (Straub in this case) went hard from so far out;- last 700m in 1:33

Great seeing the heats and semis. Coleman's comments after Coe's semi were quite pertinent.

"It's not about tactics, it's about finishing speed for Coe (after he passed 3 or 4 men like they were standing still, on the crown of the last bend). .....If only he can get close to Ovett in the final, we should have some race!"

That 1500 final was basically and other 800 m race.

Very Slow first 800 and coe had the sit on Straub. It was perfectly set up for him. Get Bayi in the race - different story.

Ovett also admitted that he partied a bit too hard after the 800m win and because he had one gold he was less interested in another. It was still a great race by Coe but I think if Coe had won the 800, Ovett would have probably taken the 1500m. Great videos.

The 800m was run more like a 1500m and the 1500m was basically an 800m race

Ovett was a bit hard done by as it was seen the 800m was only lost by Coe's poor tactics. But the 800m race is the most tactical of all the distances so the better athlete won on the day

Ovett's strength was his kick over 20m, Coe could prolong a faster speed for longer, although still had an amazing kick especially off fast pace which is where he won the 1500m

It's a pity Ovett did his leg in 1981 (especially as it wasn't a running injury - well he was running but it was not caused by physical weakness) as he never had the same kick after that. I still think Coe had the edge but there would have been a few more good races between them

Other runners have gone faster since but neither could get close to either of these 2 on a sprint finish

why do u say the 800 was like a 1500

I wonder if Coe would have traded one of his 1500m golds for one in the 800m. Although the 1500m was considered as the blue riband back then, I get the impression he liked the 800m better. Perhaps one of the reasons why he never gave up running it to move up in distance as he got older.

we'll never know wrote:

That 1500 final was basically and other 800 m race.

Very Slow first 800 and coe had the sit on Straub. It was perfectly set up for him. Get Bayi in the race - different story.

How was it another 800m race? Because the pace increased dramatically with 700m to go?

So with that reasoning, the 83 Worlds was a 400m race, as that's only when the pace increased dramatically, Ovett's World Cup win in 77 was a 200m race, as the previous 200m to that point was outside 29 secs!

There have been very few major 1500m races where the pace was at or close to WR pace for the entire 3 and 3/4 laps, and most of those were in EL G's day when he had team mates basically pacing him from the gun.

In reality, the vast majority of 1500s at championships come down to a drive from anything from 800 to 300 out, as in Moscow. It was no less a 1500 than countless ones that came before or after. Moreover, Ovett had Coe in his sights right infront of him for the entire race, and was level with him with 100 to go. From that point Coe outsprinted him, as the 12.1 fact proved. Ovett never ran the last 100 that fast.

If Bayi had been in the race and set the pace from the gun, Coe would have won by a bigger margin. He front ran a 3:31 off a 52.4 400m the following year, something Ovett never came close to doing. Coe could sustain that sort of speed for longer.

The only way Ovett would have beaten Coe that day is had the pace continued to dawdle to the bell, and if Ovett was to trap Coe with a burst and the latter got boxed; as in the 800m final or the European 1500 of 86.

we'll never know wrote:

why do u say the 800 was like a 1500

Will not exactly like - but the first lap was slow 54 meaning a runner like Ovett could capitalise. He's not really been given credit for that run

In the 1500m Ovett never quite got level with Coe (who still finished faster anyway) but Ovett did not really have his best race (after all Straub also outsprinted him). However, Coe/Straub did take away Ovett's big weapon a surge from 200m

I think Coe would have beat Ovett, following the 800m however that race was run. In a slower race Ovett would have dropped Coe at 200m with Coe clawing back to edge Ovett on the run in. Either way we will never see their like in this country anymore

deonouk What about 1984 I still think if Coe had got closer to Cruz or headed him he could have run him closer -maybe he was not in 800m shape to do that? I think as his main rivals where at 1500m he geared up for that (+ he'd missed training) - Cruz came out of nowhere to suprise him

For once I agree with Deano. Coe's finishing blast in the Moscow 1500 was devastating, maybe one of the two or three best in his glittering career, and it was simply too much for every other athlete. Straub, admittedly aided by PEDS as he was, ran a career-topping race, splitting the two greats.

But, we're regressing to the land of Deano-Ventolin True Times (DVTT - tm) to suggest that Ovett could only have beaten Coe if Coe was boxed in the last 200m on that occasion.

Yes the race was slow. But even a very slow 15 is still not an open 800.

Ovett's contemporary 800 PR of 1:44.09 was more of an underestimate of potential compared with Coe's contemporary 1:42.33. I'm not saying Ovett was better than Coe at these distances, he wasn't, but he was closer than the times indicated. If Steve Cram could run a 1:42.88, then Ovett, with better 400m speed, should ultimately have been faster. Ovett was definitely superior than Coe at longer distances. His 65:33 HM was ridiculous given the circumstances under which it was run. As were his easy 13:20s 5ks at a time when the WR was just under 13:10.

We never saw the very best of Ovett at either 800 or the 1k. Also, unlike Coe, Ovett's mental toughness was slightly suspect. Maybe this partly accounted for Ovett's refusal to countenance the 2:13 km WR attempt that he should have made somewhere between 1977 and 1980. Coe made different types of tactical mistakes in most of his 800m finals and as a result lost some of those races, but he never lost a race at any distance by reason of being mentally lazy and disengaged. Ovett did so on several occasions - the John Tracy 5k at Crystal Palace was notorious. As deano well knows.

Ovett knew the pressure was off him in the 800, which is why he ran tactically so brilliantly. He said in his autobiography, something like, well Coe was a couple of seconds faster than me, so if I'd lost the 800 in a close contest it wouldn't have done much damage. At 1500 Ovett was WR holder, unbeaten for three years, clearly the World #1 over that period. There was a lot more pressure on him at that distance. By contrast with the 8, Ovett ran reactively and negatively in the 15, expecting all the action from Coe, failing to reckon with the effect of Straub's race plan and all the time thinking a simple sit and kick would work. He underestimated Coe and succumbed to the pressure. Cram said as much in his own biography, noting the demeanor of the athletes as they prepared for the 1500. I don't have the quote to hand but it went something like, I was puzzled because Ovett kept asking, where's Seb, where's Seb, which didn't indicate to me that he had complete confidence in his ability to win this race.

Still, Coe was once asked, during your career, which runner did you have most respect for? Without hesitation, Coe responded "Steve Ovett."

deanouk wrote:If Bayi had been in the race and set the pace from the gun, Coe would have won by a bigger margin. He front ran a 3:31 off a 52.4 400m the following year

that's the following year NOT '80

sure in '81 he was capable of 3'28 that day, but he wasn't as good as that in '80

his 1500 wr in '79 was nearer his form in '80 than 3'28 ability of '81, but in '79 he took only a snip off bayi's wr - 0.13s & bayi's run was far more impressive

bayi in '74 shape wouda probably gone 3'30-flat ( more like 3'29 ) with perfect pacing to the bell & less windy stadium, whereas the coe of '80 looks like a 3'31-flat guy, maybe mid-3'30s, but he didn't look superior to bayi until '81

coe's best in '80 was 3'32.19 & that didn't look a 3'30 run

still, it's suicidal front-running a 1500 from gun-to-tape unless you got 2 or 3s on the field, so whoever of coe/ovett tucked in bayi wouda probably outkicked him somewhere in the last lap

ovett couda probably gone 1'43.5 that day on the circuit in properly paced race & i recall his 8'13wr when he followed rono around & kicked off him - there is little doubt he had at least 8'12 in him that day ( maybe even 8'11 ) if he had needed to ( rono's 7'32wr with 1.08 is ~ 8'08, but he'd had a long tiring season )

the 2 best line of fit for him in '78 ( nearest 0.25s for 400 & 800 ) are

1'43.50 with

47.00 ->2'13.2 , 3'30.3 , 3'47.5 , 8'13.2 , 13'23.9

47.25 ->2'13.0 , 3'29.4 , 3'46.5 , 8'09.2 , 13'15.6

i'd bet good money ovett couda gone sub-3'30 in '78 if he'd chased it all season on the circuit

this gets a lot of mileage, but cram never ran an open 400 in '85

the best line of fit for him in '85 ( nearest 0.25s for 400 & 800 ) is

46.50 / 1'42.50 ->2'12.0 , 3'28.4 , 3'45.5

i'd bet good money cram had mid-46 speed in '85

for the record, the 2 best lines of fit for coe ( nearest 0.25s for 400 & 800 ) for '81 are

1'41.50

45.75 ->2'10.9 , 3'27.4 , 3'44.5

46.00 ->2'10.7 , 3'26.5 , 3'43.5

his endurance almost certainly didn't "last" perfectly to 1500, so he turned out shy off these despite setting wrs, but he was in at least 3'28 shape in '81

interesting thing is that '79 ( maybe '80 as well ) he probably was in mid-46 shape & 1'42-flat :

46.50/1'42.00 ->2'11.2 , 3'26.6 , 3'43.5

indicates his theoretical potential for 1500 in those years was probably about the same as '81 but he was a much more under-developed 1500 runner in those years & coudn't get within 5s of his potential 1500 - reduced that potential gap to about 1 or 2s by '81 as he became a "truer" 1500 guy

46.50 / 1'42.50 -> 2'12.0 , 3'28.4 , 3'45.5

Meanwhile in reality his actual times were

xx.xx / 1:42.88 / 2:12.88 / 3:29.67 / 3:46.32

He not only did not run a 400m in 85, I cannot find any record but from memory I think I saw a 400m in 48.5 or so for him somewhere and a relay time of 47.6

Cram's strength was speed endurance not pure speed. which was why if not 100% he was done for in the last lap) as happened in all his later championship races

Peter Elliot ran only slightly slower than Cram over 800m 1:42.97 and like Cram could not have gone sub 47 for 400m.

Yes, the reason Straub was able to split them that day is very likely due to PEDS, although the tactics he employed were the only ones which could possibly allow him to beat Ovett. Nothing Straub did before or after that run was remotely near the standard he displayed in Moscow. A vintage Cram or Bayi possibly may have employed the same tactics that day and beat Ovett, but not Straub! He simply wasn't that good a runner. The fact he beat Ovett that day is often used as proof Ovett wasn't at his best, but a closer look at his finishing splits would show they were quite comparable to what he did in Dusseldorf or Prague. In other words, Straub was so far beyond his limit, that it made Ovett look less than what he was capable of.

Straub was a club team mate of Beyer (who had done the same sort of thing in Prague 78, again behind the iron curtain) and Dieter Hogen (Athletics coach/agent), under the tutelage of Berndt Diessner. Beyer was subsequently named as on a state controlled drug programme by Stasi files after the fall of East Germany, so........?

True. Ovett was clearly capable of high 1:42/low 1:43 in 78-80, though I think you under-estimate Cram's 400 potential. Despite an official pb of 49.1 from '82, Cram ran a 47.6 relay leg at the end of the 84 season, and must have been faster than that the following summer! Ovett's individual pb of 47.5 goes back to when he was 18 ('74), and his fastest ever leg was 46.8 in '79. Clearly they were pretty evenly matched at 1500, but I don't think Ovett was all that faster at 400m. Cram's 1:42.88 was pretty close to his limit IMO, as he had pretty even laps (51.2/51.7) and had Cruz pacing and drafting him for 700m!

Coe too was capable of faster than his pb at 800 by 81. Considering he ran a 45.5 leg from a standing start and front run a 3:31 that year.

I think you're under rating Coe's endurance too. No, he wasn't 4th in the National X country ( a very different form of running to track, and one which Ovett was well suited too) or run a 65 half marathon in mid season. But anyone who can beat Coghlan and McLoud over 4 miles (not to mention Foster's course record) after a season of 800m running in Oct '78, is not lacking in over-distance ability. Remember, that Coe started off as a 3000m runner in his teens, while Ovett was a 400m runner. I think both could easily have run 13:10 with some specific training at their peaks.

Agree. Ovett would have been capable of 2:13 in 78-80, given a few cracks at it. I'd also say he was capable of Juantorena's 800 record during that time too.

And never mind the 8, he didn't reach his potential time wise at 1500/Mile either.

I disagree with this statement. Coe won 5 major finals at 800m- 77 European Indoors, 79 Europa Cup, 81 Europa & World Cups & 1986 Europeans, employing a range of different tactics. He lost the 82 Europeans, using the same (correct) tactics he'd used in the Rome World Cup the year before, but he was suffering from glandular fever and ran the last 200 in 26.1 (compared to 24.8 in Rome). He didn't lose through bad tactics.

We've already established that Ovett was a low 1:43 performer in 78, and despite Coe holding the UK record at the time (1:44.3), he'd missed a month's training that summer due to injury and wasn't going to beat Ovett at that time. Coe and his coach had planned to run it from the front to get a medal. They never expected to win gold. Ok, it was too fast, but was hardly a failure. Peter Elliot employed similar tactics in the 83 Worlds, comes 4th and is hailed a hero; Coe gets a bronze at his first outdoor champs at 21 and is deemed a failure.

I don't think he employed the best tactics in LA 84, but given the circumstances; coming back from illness and facing probably the greatest performance in any 800m championship from Cruz; he did as well as he could. The only real "tactical mistake" Coe made in a major 800m was the Moscow final. And yes, it was a pretty disastrous one. But to make out Coe lost many 800s due to poor tactics is simply wrong.

Surely Ovett's greatest lapse was the 1500m in Oslo 81, when he allowed Byers to get more than 50m ahead with about 400 to go! Supposedly Ovett covered the last 200 in that race in 24.5, but it still wasn't enough.

I don't think he ran tactically that well! He was in a worse position than Coe as they approached the bell, boxed in horribly. He then proceeded to push and barge his way through in a fashion I would think would have gotten him disqualified had it been run in the last 10 years or so. After that, yes, he had the good sense to follow Warren and then Kirov, while Coe stayed dead last and ran the bend in lane 2!

Actually he wasn't WR holder at 1500 at the Moscow Olympics. He shared it with Coe, whose time was 0.06 faster than Ovett's. Had Ovett not broken the record AFTER Moscow, then under the new IAAF rules introduced on 1.1 81, the 1500WR would have been Coe's alone (3:32.03). In addition, the year before Coe had run the fastest 1500 & Mile, despite only running each distance once, looking like he was jogging in the Mile WR, and was World ranked No. 1. Ok, most pundits felt Ovett would win as his experience over the distance was much greater and also because everyone thought Coe would walk the 800m. But it's rather misleading to say Ovett was "clearly" No. 1 at the distance at the time. Coe did have impressive form too.

Yes, Cram's told that story many times.

He sure did. His exact words were:-

"I think Steve's the greatest runner I ever competed against, probably the most complete athlete I knew."

The only 400m that I am aware of Cram running was on August 15 1982 when he clocked 49.01 at the opening of a new tartan track in Sunderland.

That's a little unfair! Coe only ran 1 1500m in 79, and 1 Mile, all season. It's very rare for someone to run their perfect race and achieve full potential based on just 1 run! He was just very inexperienced at running them.

Coe's splits in the 79 WR were all over the place, and his first 400 was too fast at 54.3. By 700m Coe moved to the front, thus running the last 800m alone. That's worth 1 sec for lack of drafting between 700 and 1100m for a start. Then re-calculate for uneven pace distribution, and it's got to be worth something approaching 3:30 flat. Coe was quoted at the time that had he had pace for another lap he felt he'd have run 3:30 flat.

Coe's splits were -54.3, 58.9, 56.3, 42.5- even more uneven than

Bayi's -54.9, 57.3, 58.6, 41.4

Yes, Bayi ran the entire race solo, but he was more experienced running the distance and front running was his best strategy. He also had Walker & co. closing in on him over the last lap, which would be a huge motivating force to push on.

Likewise in 1980, Coe only ran one fast race, destroying Walker, Scott & Bayi in Zurich with 3:32.19. He only started sprinting with 100 to go, and won by over a second. Again, he had crap pacing, running 54.5, 58.2, 58.8, 40.6 and 13.0 for the last 100m. If that's not 3:30 ability; especially considering Wessinghage and Hudak ran 3:31 that year; then I don't know what is.

bazza wrote:

The only 400m that I am aware of Cram running was on August 15 1982 when he clocked 49.01 at the opening of a new tartan track in Sunderland.

He definitely ran a 47.6 relay leg in the Far East in September 84. That's worth around 48.1 for a flat.

I agree with Ventolin that he'd have been faster than that in the summer of 85, but I tend to agree with ukathletics coach, in that I doubt he'd have been capable of below 47.0 for a flat. It would be close though!