Why do some coaches only do stuff threshold? He even thinks speed work should be threshold. He gets mad when I run fast. How can you get fast when you don't run fast? . He has no variety in his training plan. I added my own stuff and I got way faster. If he found out he would FLIP!
Threshold stuff was pretty big 25-30 years ago. For some coaches it was really all the physiology they bothered to learn.
The whole shebang was hooked on the idea that oxygen delivery is all you really needed to be a successful distance runner and that blood lactate was just bad to the bone. Then the threshold turned out not be anaerobic or even a threshold. Lactate was found to be a useful metabolic fuel actually required to augment VO2 uptake at higher levels. That famed Conconi HR deflection point? Not really a deflection point at all. And of course it turned out that overtrained distance runners show blunted lactate responses. Less lactate, slower times. For top performance you want high lactate values at any given RPE. Later on, the famed 4mmol fixed blood lactate value turned out to be neither steady state or 4mmol. Then Noakes presented data showing the true best predictor of endurance performance from a treadmill test was the speed at finish of the test, this a diplomatic way of saying most everything else believed up to then should be scrapped or the very least, reconsidered.
The final straw was the realization that the very best long distance runners have muscle fiber characteristics much more in line with those of middle distance athletes. Those remarkable type I oxidative fibers turned out to be not so great after all. Moreover,many different combinations of intensity and duration provide more or less the same sort of mitochondrial changes. And especially high volume training is optional. It isn't all about the mitochondria either. You can slow a runner down quite effectively by fiddling with levels of some rather useful neurotransmitters.
This brings us back to your training. Is running "threshold" necessary to become a great runner? No. Is interval training sub-optimal? No, not really. Ultimately it's the mix that matters and most importantly, the realization that no two runners are made exactly the same; thus, no two runners need train the same.
We honor the great physiologists and coaches of the past by challenging their thinking rather than accepting their ideas as sacrosanct. Anyway, the bottom line here is that if you want to reach your potential as a distance runner you will train at a wide range of running velocities, and your top speed will end up being just about as important as your ability to maintain speed.
Thanks a lot. How do I tell my coach that? He won't listen to me and I read a bunch of running blogs such as what Canova puts on here and some of some of Steve Magness's blogs. He's hard headed and he wants control. The threshold stuff is making me feel flat.
On my own I added
Drills, plyometrics
12x200 meter hill sprints
and fartleks at the end of runs.
Try to reason with him to be honest. Don't be a rebel. You need to show him things on the internet that support your ideas without being an ass about it. Show him, don't tell him.
Also, Steve Magnuss has some good articles on speed work and whatnot. Threshold/Tempo stuff should be late base period, not in season. Who cares if he's hardheaded? He may not tell you, but he'll still take a look at what it says.
Is your coach perhaps an old marathoner from the 70's or 80's?
Earlier in the month Nike had the distance summit with Canova, Dr. Vigil, and others. From the thread about the summit it appeared that only about 15 of us from here bothered to go. None of the so-called gurus on letsrun commented at all. I think you'll find many people don't want to leave their comfort zone and challenge what they know.
In addition to what you've said, you could do some of the threshold runs Kenyan style: start slow, gradually speed up to run most of the run just under the threshold, and hammer the last half mile or so.
You can also do some warmup or cooldown strides fairly fast because they can be kept short.
So If I should him that stuff yall actually think he would take a look?
I really don't think he would listen to me. I am a rebel and I can't help it :(.
****Showed is what I meant to put.
Well, I don't want to go messing with another coach's training--and I coach in D1 so if you're in high school I'm not sure I'd want to try Canova's stuff without significant modification. We, however, DO base our middle distance program on Canova's stuff.
If you want to try to live with the program, the Kenyan version of threshold training I mentioned above is what the Kenyans call progression. When Paul Tergat was multi-time World XC champ, essentially his whole training was just progression runs, so this is one way to live with your coach's structure and still improve.
If I was in your position, I'd be tempted to give your coach a copy of Daniels Running Formula as a gift.
Also, about the hill training. Canova talks about doing hill sprints as just 6-8 seconds at maximum intensity with 1-2 or so minutes of recovery. The reason is to not build up too much lactate. Also, you can intermix Canova's hill sprints in the middle of regular runs if you have such hills available. Canova does this with his Kenyan elites.
Thank you. I am in college. The only hill I can find is about 200 meters high. The progression runs do sound like a good way to do them though.
chacha wrote:
Thanks a lot. How do I tell my coach that? He won't listen to me and I read a bunch of running blogs such as what Canova puts on here and some of some of Steve Magness's blogs. He's hard headed and he wants control. The threshold stuff is making me feel flat.
On my own I added
Drills, plyometrics
12x200 meter hill sprints
and fartleks at the end of runs.
You and me have similar stories...I did my own stuff over christmas break my freshman year and dominated the indoor season, then my fitness struggled throughout the outdoor season so in my sophmore season i scheduled classes during practice time so i can practice on my own...I have recenty broke two school records and hoping to get my third this weekend.
Wow! I plan on doing the same. Thanks! You should email me or something and tell me more of your success stories. I enjoy hearing stuff like that.
coach d wrote:
If you want to try to live with the program, the Kenyan version of threshold training I mentioned above is what the Kenyans call progression. When Paul Tergat was multi-time World XC champ, essentially his whole training was just progression runs, so this is one way to live with your coach's structure and still improve.
That is absolute BS. When Tergat trained for XC he did what the other Kenyans did. Progressions, fast sustained runs, fartlek and hill reps. When he trained for the 10000 he did a lot of brutal track sessions.
yeah I bet he did more than progressive runs. Kenyans do easy runs progressively.
chacha wrote:
Thank you. I am in college. The only hill I can find is about 200 meters high. The progression runs do sound like a good way to do them though.
What is the initial elevation? What about the grade of the hill? 200 meters high could be a great hill. Or it could be useless. Did you by chance mean 200 meters long?
dsrunner has the day off wrote:
Threshold stuff was pretty big 25-30 years ago. For some coaches it was really all the physiology they bothered to learn.
The whole shebang was hooked on the idea that oxygen delivery is all you really needed to be a successful distance runner and that blood lactate was just bad to the bone. Then the threshold turned out not be anaerobic or even a threshold. Lactate was found to be a useful metabolic fuel actually required to augment VO2 uptake at higher levels. That famed Conconi HR deflection point? Not really a deflection point at all. And of course it turned out that overtrained distance runners show blunted lactate responses. Less lactate, slower times. For top performance you want high lactate values at any given RPE. Later on, the famed 4mmol fixed blood lactate value turned out to be neither steady state or 4mmol. Then Noakes presented data showing the true best predictor of endurance performance from a treadmill test was the speed at finish of the test, this a diplomatic way of saying most everything else believed up to then should be scrapped or the very least, reconsidered.
The final straw was the realization that the very best long distance runners have muscle fiber characteristics much more in line with those of middle distance athletes. Those remarkable type I oxidative fibers turned out to be not so great after all. Moreover,many different combinations of intensity and duration provide more or less the same sort of mitochondrial changes. And especially high volume training is optional. It isn't all about the mitochondria either. You can slow a runner down quite effectively by fiddling with levels of some rather useful neurotransmitters.
This brings us back to your training. Is running "threshold" necessary to become a great runner? No. Is interval training sub-optimal? No, not really. Ultimately it's the mix that matters and most importantly, the realization that no two runners are made exactly the same; thus, no two runners need train the same.
We honor the great physiologists and coaches of the past by challenging their thinking rather than accepting their ideas as sacrosanct. Anyway, the bottom line here is that if you want to reach your potential as a distance runner you will train at a wide range of running velocities, and your top speed will end up being just about as important as your ability to maintain speed.
Very good, I agree with everything but this: "For top performance you want high lactate values at any given RPE."
RPE being rate of perceived exertion.
In terms of efficiency, a lower lactate level at race pace due to more elastic energy return is ideal, but it is still (usually) very hard work to do this, although every now and then you get a super float day where the RPE just seems an irrelevant concept. I tried to discuss this with Noakes himself on this forum, but he was so caught up in his RPE ideas that he just didn't get it at all.
Well The interval of the hill workout is 200 meters. I start sprinting about 90 meters before I start going up the hill. The hill part itself is only about 90-100 meters long. It's relatively steep so you have to use good momentum to actually get up it.
J.O. wrote:
I tried to discuss this with Noakes himself on this forum, but he was so caught up in his RPE ideas that he just didn't get it at all.
Noakes posts here? What's his handle?
chacha wrote:
Well The interval of the hill workout is 200 meters. I start sprinting about 90 meters before I start going up the hill. The hill part itself is only about 90-100 meters long. It's relatively steep so you have to use good momentum to actually get up it.
Try starting on the hill then carrying on for 50-75m when it levels at the top
There is another Kenyan saying 'don't waste good running' you don't want to kill yourself in every session but if you are feeling good don't hold back
People get carried away with all this feeling comfortable during intervals BS. It's like keeping your car in 4th gear on the motorway (freeway or whatever you call it) It actually feels harder than running in 5th gear
Im my experience most runners know more about running than a lot of coaches!
Yes I definitely agree with you on that Ukathletics!!
I don't understand why most college coaches have such big egos.
interesting training phase. You should definitely check out this website by Tinman. He incorporates a ton of threshold training, maybe this is similar to what your coach was trying to do? the website is therunzone.com