Alberto's Marathon Training... FLAWED

Kara has two major marathon podiums. One she was just meters away from first place and the other was a debut that made her the third fastest American at the marathon on a difficult course. Her only poor performance at the Marathon was Worlds where she barfed fluids but still managed to run 2:27 in the heat and finish 10th overall. She has run three very strong marathons. I do not see any reason to go back to the drawing board.

Honestly I think Dathan needs more mileage and less quality if he wants to be succesful in the marathon. Running ~100mpw is just not really cutting it for most elite marathoners. Salazar has him running these 20 mile tempos at marathon pace in training but then he can't hold the same pace when he is tapered...obviously something is wrong.

I would love to see what would happen if Ritz threw all the BS out the window and just 140mpw with an easy to moderate 20-24 mile long run every Sunday, a long tempo on Tuesday, some fast repeats on Friday, and the rest easy mileage.

Instead of blaming his coaching, I think a more likely reason that his "marathoners" are performing better at 5k to the 1/2 marathon is that he's coaching athletes who are ideally suited to those distances but want to run the marathon instead.

I am not expert at coaching anybody, let alone an elite. However, it seems to me based only on what he revealed in this interview that he is training her the same way he would if she was focusing on the 5k-10k but with a few more tempos and long runs and higher mileage. Is this a good approach?

Er... wrote:

Instead of blaming his coaching, I think a more likely reason that his "marathoners" are performing better at 5k to the 1/2 marathon is that he's coaching athletes who are ideally suited to those distances but want to run the marathon instead.

Your approach sounds identical to what the Hansons are doing. Is this one of the Hansons athletes or coaches?

Successful Coach wrote:

I read today's Brief Chat with Kara and Alberto and came away puzzled. It appears that Alberto puts a lot of emphasis on running 800s and miles at WAY faster then MP. In fact, the paces mentioned in the article are roughly at 3k-5k race pace for Kara. Doing a ton of V02Max work, and a long tempo (up to 20 miles) is going to make you one heck of a 5k-1/2 marathoner... but it's not the way to train for the marathon.

It worked for Frank Shorter.

Successful Coach wrote:

I read today's Brief Chat with Kara and Alberto and came away puzzled. Blah, blah...

You are not half as successful as your ego lets you believe (btw who would choose such a moniker - even if it's true?). You appear unable to see how wrong you are.

There's more than one way to skin a cat ... just not according to you.

See the comment on Frank Shorter.

Shorter was the best in the world at the marathon, however, it should be noted that his PR is 2:10:30. We now live in a completely different universe where if one can't run at least sub 2:08 one isn't anywhere.

Sorry to burst your bubble wrote:

Successful Coach wrote:

I read today's Brief Chat with Kara and Alberto and came away puzzled. Blah, blah...

You are not half as successful as your ego lets you believe (btw who would choose such a moniker - even if it's true?). You appear unable to see how wrong you are.

There's more than one way to skin a cat ... just not according to you.

See the comment on Frank Shorter.

I don't see anything wrong with his marathon coaching, per se. I'm sure that Alberto has been around a lot more marathoners than you will ever in your imaginary lifetime.

The problem that I see with Alberto is that he's got an unlimited budget and is able to poach already successful track runners, and is trying to force them out of their best events. At some point he's going to have to realize that the events choose the athlete, the athlete does'nt choose the event. It's 2011 and he still hasn't figured that out, I wonder if he ever will.

You can't have thoroughbreds pulling beer wagons and you can't put Clydesdales in prize races.

Exploit your strengths, mitigate your weaknesses.

malmo wrote:

At some point he's going to have to realize that the events choose the athlete, the athlete does'nt choose the event.

One of the biggest loads of horseshit I have ever read.

That's an astounding display if ignorance. I'd stay anonymous if I were you.

This is what I want to hear more about. Bizarrely enough, I agree with malmo. What do others think?

MLKJ wrote:

malmo wrote:

At some point he's going to have to realize that the events choose the athlete, the athlete does'nt choose the event.

One of the biggest loads of horseshit I have ever read.

malmo wrote:

That's an astounding display if ignorance. I'd stay anonymous if I were you.

Ignorant because I actually believe with hard work someone can become good at any event they may choose? You're the ignorant one thinking that there is just some magic event that just appears for each and every person and they can't ever be good at anything else.

I've heard you spout that crap off about the steeple and your stupid round hole, sqauare peg crap too long.

MLKJ , you aren't even in the game.

MLKJ wrote:

malmo wrote:

That's an astounding display if ignorance. I'd stay anonymous if I were you.

Ignorant because I actually believe with hard work someone can become good at any event they may choose? You're the ignorant one thinking that there is just some magic event that just appears for each and every person and they can't ever be good at anything else.

I've heard you spout that crap off about the steeple and your stupid round hole, sqauare peg crap too long.

This sounds like the mentality of a 11th grader.

I know a guy who trained for the 5k his whole life thinking he would never seriously run a 10k, then switched to the 10k and ran 26:59 in his debut.

The best part is that he STILL wants to do the 5k.

MLKJ wrote:

Ignorant because I actually believe with hard work someone can become good at any event they may choose? You're the ignorant one thinking that there is just some magic event that just appears for each and every person and they can't ever be good at anything else.

I've heard you spout that crap off about the steeple and your stupid round hole, sqauare peg crap too long.

MLKJ - That "you can go do whatever you put your mind to!" attitude sounds inspirational and might work in high school or even, to a lesser extent, in some college situations, but once you're at the elite level, you pretty much know what event is most suited for someone's particular talents.

MLKJ wrote:

Ignorant because I actually believe with hard work someone can become good at any event they may choose? You're the ignorant one thinking that there is just some magic event that just appears for each and every person and they can't ever be good at anything else.

Where did anyone say a runner can only be good at one event? I think you're taking a bit of a leap there with that statement.

In college I tried the steeple a few times. Even practiced hurdling and all that. Lost by 15 seconds to a guy on my team who was running his first steeple whom I had beaten by 20 seconds in a 5000m a week prior.

He went on to win our conference as a freshman while I duked it out in the 5000m.

Instead of looking at it as "I suck at the steeple and must get better at it" I just cut my losses and ran the event I was good at. So did my teammate. Doesn't mean he wasn't a good 5000m runner, just that he was better at the steeple.

I brought this up to be debated. I'm not saying I am right and Alberto is wrong... I am stating my OPINION, based on 1 article I read, as a successful coach who has had major coaching disasters and major coaching successes. I have had the biggest disasters when I had my guys doing too much speed work (I NOW define speed work as anything a mile or less, faster then 15k race pace). All faded the last 4-10 miles.

I have had the most amount of success after conversations with Renato Canova led me to tweak my athletes training more towards 1/2 marathon pace - marathon pace work, and longer intervals.

For the track-oriented guys, I often still do the miles, the 800s etc that Alberto alluded to, but about 6-8 weeks before taper, I transition to almost all 1/2 MP - MP work (more MP then 1/2).

No, this is not one of the Hansons. I would say my model is one I developed on my own, after years of experimentation and loads of conversations with some of the best athletes and coaches in history.

I am also the first to admit that I have lots to learn about training... that each athlete is different and will thrive off different things... etc. HOWEVER, there is one basic principle to the marathon: fuel management. You have to TEACH and practice fuel management. The workouts, the methods, the mileage, etc can all be unique and different. Doubles vs singles, 100 vs 160 miles per week, track work versus hill work vs road work vs 10k repeats vs 3k repeats vs 10 mile tempos vs 15 mile tempos, etc. BUT, the end goal has to be the same... to teach the body to run a certain pace while conserving fuel. You don't need to be a Ferrari... you need to be a Porsche Hybrid.

Malmo, you might be right. Ritz may be a better 3k-10k guy. There is no doubt about that possibility. I think you're probably right (I mean the kid did run 4:05 as a pre-pubescent JUNIOR in hs... don't tell me he doesn't have wheels). HOWEVER, I would like to see him try the methods I suggested before I would be convinced. You don't need that to be convinced, but I would like to see it.

Here are some peculiar facts. Tadesse and Ritz are both world class runners (Tadesse clearly, and when one runs 12:56 and 60 flat, one is world class), yet neither has succeeded in the marathon. This must be puzzling to everyone. Gotcher, who I think it must be admitted is not in the class of either, is only 36 seconds slower than Ritz (and two minutes slower in the half) and a minute and a half faster than Tadesse (who's three and a half minutes faster in the half than Gotcher). So how does one explain all of this? There really are only two possibilities: it's a matter of training or its a matter of ability (physically and psychologically). The OP suggests it's a matter of training (although is what he suggests so different from what Ritz was doing under Hudson?); Malmo suggests that it's ability--that is, his abilities lie elsewhere. Neither of these positions, however, strike me as obviously wrongheaded. What I must admit is amazing to me is that Shorter was able to set the American Record in the 10000 in an Olympic heat, break that record three days later and come in fifth in the Olympic 10000, and then a week later win the Olympic marathon (and three months after that set a PR at Fukuoka). Gauging by what the OP suggested for marathon training, this would seem well nigh impossible.

Er... wrote:

This is what I want to hear more about. Bizarrely enough, I agree with malmo. What do others think?

MLKJ wrote:

One of the biggest loads of horseshit I have ever read.