It seems like the better 800 meter runners out there are 400/800 runners (Rudisha/Johnson as examples) and the better 1500 meter runners are 800/1500 runners (Pierce, Kiprop). I think that this pattern will keep going. Besides the 800 meters turned into a sprint, and the 1500 meters is turning into a sprint. What will eventually happen?
Sprinting the marathon. Nice conclusion. That'll work out great.
its not necessarily sprinting it is just that distance runners are getting faster and faster
Unsure wrote:
Sprinting the marathon. Nice conclusion. That'll work out great.
im always right
besides u are unsure
[quote]taftrunner wrote:
and the better 1500 meter runners are 800/1500 runners (Pierce, Kiprop)./quote]
Kind of like Hicham El Ghuerrouj and Bernard Lagat? Maybe Kiprop and Pierce ought to try a 5k.
taftrunner wrote:
It seems like the better 800 meter runners out there are 400/800 runners (Rudisha/Johnson as examples) and the better 1500 meter runners are 800/1500 runners (Pierce, Kiprop). I think that this pattern will keep going. Besides the 800 meters turned into a sprint, and the 1500 meters is turning into a sprint. What will eventually happen?
I always hear this quote that the 800m is now a sprint. It is as untrue as ever. Whomever is running the fastest 800s in any time period, is running well slower than what he or she can sprint. And the 800m has not changed much over the last 25 yrs - 1:41.71 to 1:41.08.
Heck, the 100m has almost improved that much 9.92 to 9.58.
1:41 for 800m is running 12.62 for each 100m with a running start for the last 7 of them. This is impressive, but hardly a sprint for these world class athletes - most with a running start could run just over 11 seconds.
1:41 for 800m is running 12.62 for each 100m with a running start for the last 7 of them. This is impressive, but hardly a sprint for these world class athletes - most with a running start could run just over 11 seconds.[/quote]
You are certainly right that it isn't a sprint, though maybe more than you think. I read an interview with Bekele one time, and he said his PR was 11.0. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the quicker 800 guys could hit in the 10.5 neighborhood.
Usain Bolt claims that his PR in the 800 is 2:06, a time that was probably run as a workout on grass (yes, they have sprinters running 800 in Jamaica for training).
An 800 these days is not sprint pace for pure sprinters, but to it is a pace that many distance runners cannot run at all. A fast 400 is a requirement for 800 runners these days. On the other (pure sprinting) side, pure sprinters are acquiring the capability to run 400 at the pace of 400 specialists (one of the fastest 400 runners last season was Tyson Gay)....and then they do their 100 meter sprint training on top of this. And of course, the WR holder in the marathon has run 3:31 for 1500 indoors.
A fast 400 is becoming a requirement for ANY track event these days, and those that don't have it basically can't compete at the world class level any more. I suspect the misfit types who want to believe that 100mpw of jogging will make them "fast" don't particularly like this.
Coe, Cruz, and Morceli had 100m PRs claimed to be 10.6.
coach d wrote:
Coe, Cruz, and Morceli had 100m PRs claimed to be 10.6.
Coe couldn't run 10.6, maybe 10.9 at best - Ovett actually ran several 100m when younger- his books in my shed though! Think around 11 flat was his best
No way could Morceli break 11
I sometimes think though you could have a lot of distance races say an Olympic 10,000m; and on the start line say do a 200m instead and get a similar top 3
OK just of comments here. OP's conclusion is correct. The top marathoners are outstanding 5000m runners and the trend is for ever faster middle distance runners to tackle the marathon.
I haven't missed sleep wondering if El G ran that 142 in practice. He was certainly capable, and he says he did. Watch the 2000 1500m final and tell me how many great 800m runners contended for the medals. I count 4. And I promise you, if we ever see anybody break the world record, it will be accomplished by one helluva 800m runner.
Someone posted that the 100m has improved nearly as much as the 800m. A bit of a stretch. 144 -> 141 in 45 years, so proportionate would be ~3/8 sec in the 100m. Top sprinters in the early 60's were capable of <10. And truth be told, I'd bet Tommie Smith would've given Johnson and Bolt a great race in the 200m.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
coach d wrote:Coe, Cruz, and Morceli had 100m PRs claimed to be 10.6.
Coe couldn't run 10.6, maybe 10.9 at best - Ovett actually ran several 100m when younger- his books in my shed though! Think around 11 flat was his best
No way could Morceli break 11
Wrong:
The eye couldn't help but fasten on Noureddine Morceli and Hassiba Boulmerka as they ran their respective 1,500-meter finals at the world championships in Tokyo last summer. They stood out in their Algerian green, the green of mallards and meadows, the green of Islam. Morceli, the indoor-record holder, was the favorite in the men's race, but Boulmerka was virtually unknown in the women's.
Morceli followed a strong, even pace and kicked early, with a full 400 meters to go. He blasted into the lead so hard, burning 100 meters in a maniacal 12.8 seconds, that he seemed certain to be exhausted well before the homestretch.
Boulmerka didn't claw out of the pack and into the lead until late in the last turn. Behind her was world and Olympic 3,000-meter champion Tatyana Samolenko Dorovskikh of the U.S.S.R., famed for her kick and just beginning to open up.
Morceli covered the second 100 of his last lap in another extraordinary 12.8. His third 100 was yet another 12.8. He had just run the fastest finishing 300 in the history of championship 1,500s, but he still had 100 meters to go and Kenya's Wilfred Kirochi was only five meters back.
Boulmerka, in her homestretch, labored to hold on. She told herself that now was the moment to believe. She had been strong all season. She would be strong once more. And so she was. Dorovskikh could sprint no closer.
Morceli, far from tightening, gained an astounding 10 meters in his last 100. He relaxed across the line in a meet record of 3:32.84.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004061/index.htm#ixzz19wZA4z63
Coe ran 46.87 and a 45.5 relay split. That is equivalent to well under 11.0 And Cruz, once a sprinter, was the fastest of the group, but Rudisha is probably faster yet.
A Skeptic wrote:
1:41 for 800m is running 12.62 for each 100m with a running start for the last 7 of them. This is impressive, but hardly a sprint for these world class athletes - most with a running start could run just over 11 seconds.
I would put Rudisha at no slower than 10.7 (most likely closer to 10.5) and a Symmonds type at around 10.8 or 10.9.
dsrunner has the day off wrote:
OK just of comments here. OP's conclusion is correct. The top marathoners are outstanding 5000m runners and the trend is for ever faster middle distance runners to tackle the marathon.
I haven't missed sleep wondering if El G ran that 142 in practice. He was certainly capable, and he says he did. Watch the 2000 1500m final and tell me how many great 800m runners contended for the medals. I count 4. And I promise you, if we ever see anybody break the world record, it will be accomplished by one helluva 800m runner.
Someone posted that the 100m has improved nearly as much as the 800m. A bit of a stretch. 144 -> 141 in 45 years, so proportionate would be ~3/8 sec in the 100m. Top sprinters in the early 60's were capable of <10. And truth be told, I'd bet Tommie Smith would've given Johnson and Bolt a great race in the 200m.
Obviously any 1500 guy is going to be pretty good at 800, but if you look at, say, the top 10 fastest 1500 guys ever, none of them have ever done much in the 800 (except the doper Ramzi). On the other hand, three of them (including the two fastest) have won global titles in the 5000 (El G, Lagat, and 1996 Olympic champ Venuste Niyongabo). I'm not saying that the next great guy won't be an 800/1500 type, but there is no reason that he won't be a 1500/5000 type or an exclusive 1500 type. And I don't know where that legend about El G running 1:42 in practice came from, but he would have gotten waxed if he had tried an 800 in a big meet.
Wise Guy wrote:And I don't know where that legend about El G running 1:42 in practice came from, but he would have gotten waxed if he had tried an 800 in a big meet.
only if guy was running 1'41
look at this race :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTNBLDrkJH8he ran 3'29.9
if you sum the fastest 1k in it, including the 1st lap to eliminate flying start, it comes to
~ high-2'14
you have to have serious 800 speed to run a 2'14, let alone a composite one in a 1500 !!!
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Coe couldn't run 10.6, maybe 10.9 at best - Ovett actually ran several 100m when younger- his books in my shed though! Think around 11 flat was his best
No way could Morceli break 11
coach d wrote:
Wrong:
[quote]The eye couldn't help but fasten on Noureddine Morceli and Hassiba Boulmerka as they ran their respective 1,500-meter finals at the world championships in Tokyo last summer. They stood out in their Algerian green, the green of mallards and meadows, the green of Islam. Morceli, the indoor-record holder, was the favorite in the men's race, but Boulmerka was virtually unknown in the women's.
Morceli followed a strong, even pace and kicked early, with a full 400 meters to go. He blasted into the lead so hard, burning 100 meters in a maniacal 12.8 seconds, that he seemed certain to be exhausted well before the homestretch.
Boulmerka didn't claw out of the pack and into the lead until late in the last turn. Behind her was world and Olympic 3,000-meter champion Tatyana Samolenko Dorovskikh of the U.S.S.R., famed for her kick and just beginning to open up.
Morceli covered the second 100 of his last lap in another extraordinary 12.8. His third 100 was yet another 12.8. He had just run the fastest finishing 300 in the history of championship 1,500s, but he still had 100 meters to go and Kenya's Wilfred Kirochi was only five meters back.
Boulmerka, in her homestretch, labored to hold on. She told herself that now was the moment to believe. She had been strong all season. She would be strong once more. And so she was. Dorovskikh could sprint no closer.
Morceli, far from tightening, gained an astounding 10 meters in his last 100. He relaxed across the line in a meet record of 3:32.84.
Coach d, the more you post the more ignorant you sound. How does that show Morceli could run under 11.0? World class distance runners can run near their max at the end of races. Morceli is no different.
His last 100m of that race was 13.1.
morceli musta had 47/48s speed, which is undoubted
marita koch ran 10.83/21.71/47.60 ( albeit not same year )
she had similar 400 ability to morceli but obviously inferior endurance ( she was a sprinter ) & therefore ran 47.6 off better speed
he therefore is not likely have have the speed to run 10.83 or 21.71
i'd be very surprised if he couda broken 11 or 22
Unsure wrote:
Sprinting the marathon. Nice conclusion. That'll work out great.
Imbecile. That's not at all what the OP was saying.
However, the half marathon is being run and trained for more and more the way the 10 was even 15 years ago...