Jack Daniels - Chapt. 16

my coach is using this to coach me as well as a few other kids on my team right now, he started using Jack Daniel's Running Formula this winter season and it seems to be working great for me (i'm a 800/1500 runner)

I think the biggest problem with his 800/1500 programs is the lack of anything faster than 800 pace. Mid distance runners need to do some 400m pace running as well as some all out sprinting. The programs also lack specific speed endurance training.

i agreeso far i haven't done anything (or i wasn't supposed to) faster than race pace and that has had me a little worriedbut i think the addition of a lot of threshold/interval type training has helped me significantly in a short period

well. wrote:

I think the biggest problem with his 800/1500 programs is the lack of anything faster than 800 pace. Mid distance runners need to do some 400m pace running as well as some all out sprinting. The programs also lack specific speed endurance training.

I agree need some 400 pace stuff, especially if you are a 400-800 type.

Also, some of the phase III and IV workouts are brutal. Examples:

Week 17 Q2 workout has 2 x 400 at 800 pace

1 X 600 at 800 pace

2 x 300 at 800 pace

sandwiched between a 600 at mile pace and 4 x 200 at mile pace.

Week 19 Q1 workout has 2 x 600 at 800 pace

2 x 300 at 800 pace

AFTER doing 4 x 200 at mile pace AND an 800 at mile pace.

1800-2000 meters at 800 pace seems like enough for one workout unless all the reps are 300 or shorter. Adding in up to a mile of mile-paced intervals (including longer ones like 600 or 800 meters) seems just too difficult.

yepppp wrote:

my coach is using this to coach me as well as a few other kids on my team right now, he started using Jack Daniel's Running Formula this winter season and it seems to be working great for me (i'm a 800/1500 runner)

yepppp - you must be from a warmer climate or have an indoor track. This is my concern, in the far northern USA

the track has snow on it almost all winter and the temps rarely get above 15 - 20 degrees. How can you get the faster paced workouts in with those kinds of temps plus ice and snow? I know Daniels tells us how to shorten the weekly phases, but that seems to eliminate alot of good workouts doesn't it? By reducing his workouts to a ten week program rather than 24 weeks, can you still get good times by the end of May?

Any suggestions?

All you need to know is this interview with German Fernadez's high school coach:

Our training is pure Jack Daniels. I have a masters degree in physiology myself – I did my thesis on VO2 max – and I understand where Jack is coming from with his training philosophy, and I agree with it. All of German's training is based on the training paces in Jack's book. I could have pushed German more on the speed end of his training, but I didn't feel that it was worth the risk. We wanted to avoid those injuries he had the last two seasons.

If you want to know our secrets, he does 300 push ups every night, and 200 crunches, and he rides his bike ten minutes every day. He runs six days a week – 12 workouts – and I give him one rest day. There, that's it, now you know everything. I think the bike riding is good to develop the quads and stretch the calf muscle. Besides, as a runner you're never far away from an injury that's going to force you to get off your feet and your body weight, and cycling is a good activity for those times, so it's good to stay in touch with it.

Here is the link to the whole interview:

http://racingnews.runnersworld.com/2008/06/a-brief-chat-with-bruce-edwards-coach-of-german-fernandez.html

Unless you're peaking for something in March, I don't think you need to be too worried about a lack of volume at 400m pace or better...

I have used Daniels ideas for my team for ~10 years. I live in one of the snowiest areas in the U.S. and use the 24 week build up for track. Most of my guys ran XC in the fall and continued to run afterwards with no particular structure to their training for 6-7 weeks.

The next 6 weeks will contain a partial hill workout (5 x 300m 7% grade @800m effort or ~1500m speed) at the end of a typical run, a day with significant volume at marathon pace, a long run, and 3 other days with mileage as necessary to reach their weekly goals including 1% downhill strides on the road at 800m goal pace. Each week we add one hill and reduce the pre-mileage so that we have a complete hill workout by the end of the phase. At this point I don't worry to much about recovery times on the hills. I want them running with good form and developing the power they'll need in subsequent phases. We alternate between 5 mi @MP and 10 x 1 mi @MP w/1:00 recoveries for the 2nd hard workout each week. We also have 2-3 workouts each week that significantly stress the core (chest to knees - try the P90X DVD's for one of these each week) and use speed ropes with the intent to reduce ground contact times. Those that will have a high emphasis on the 800 in the late spring have also started lifting; though, we limit that to the Olympic lifts for the most part.

The next phase we'll maintain hill workouts every other week and add in some repetition work with flexible rest intervals on the other days. The repetition work is done on the roads in a nearby neighborhood as we won't be able to see our track until mid-March. The MP work is replaced by tempo effort runs - continous one week/cruise intervals the next. The long run becomes a progressive run at this point as well. Core work continues 2-3 days/week; though, I expect the guys are doing some core work at home every night and have been doing so all along.

The 3rd phase begins the first week we have meets. The make-up of the team, the abilities of each runner, the weather, and the level of competition expected in the dual meet and the invitational each week all influence what workouts look like for the week for each runner. Things become very individualized at this point.

JV types don't run in invitationals so I tend to have them to tempo type work on Monday, the dual meet on Wed. counts as their rep workout, and they do an interval workout on Fri or Sat depending on the date/time of the invitational. Get every kid into the 4x400 at the end of the meet if you can. At first many will not like it, but it becomes a shared team experience and teaches them how to run hard when they are tired. The rest periods during the interval workouts become much shorter as the phase progresses - these are some of the most painful workouts of the year.

We try to place varsity guys in their primary events at the invitationals on Fri/Sat and use the dual meets to create a tempo effort type day. They might do 2 mi at T-pace shortly after getting off the bus and then again during the 3200m run. Most will do a field event and all will do the 4x400m. Our dual meets do not affect our league championship so we have quite a bit of flexibility. There are some teams that you want to beat heads-up in a 4x800 and so the dual meet isn't always a pure tempo day, but it doesn't approach the intensity of an true interval/rep day. Monday becomes their interval day. If the invitational is on Saturday, Thursday becomes the long run. If the invitational is on Friday, the varsity guys do the long run Saturday morning while the JV guys are doing their track workout.

The final phase for the varsity guys begins the week before our league championship. This gives them 5 weeks before the state meet. Between the 6 weeks in the prior phase and the faster running during this phase, your runners have plenty of time to optimize their anaerobic system and their efficiency at race pace and faster. You really don't need to worry about 400m pace stuff in the early phases. If you are using a 24 week plan, there is plenty of time for that later.

He's alright for the early phases, but his lack of knowledge about speed training, speed end, special endurance would lead me to move away from his system in the track pre-season for 800 and 1500m runners.

Another Option - Thank you. Am I missing something? In your Phase II I do not see the 200's and 400's that seem to be the core of Daniels Phase II Q1. I haven't dug that deeply into Daniels yet - is your M pace the same as his Easy pace.

I am just getting started reading Daniels, but if I was to make a quick observation your program appears to be more Lydiard than Daniels.

Is your 4 X 8 team made up mostly from your cross team and do they have good foot speed? Over the past several years

what kind of times do you get from your 4 X 8?

Thank you.

M pace is marathon pace in Daniels' tables. Be sure to use the VDOT level that corresponds to your athletes' 5k times rather than 800 or 1500 efforts; otherwise, the pace will be too hard for most high school athletes - their aerobic systems tend to be underdeveloped compared to their speed in the shorter events.

Our 4x8 team is almost always made up of XC runners. Leg speed is modest >53 sec/400m with a team best in the last 4 years of 7:52. However, most of them started as freshmen with 400 prs of 59-62 sec/400m. You work with what you have ...

Because of a lack of access to a track in the winter & early spring, we do most of the 200/400 work in Phase II as 300m hills on "A" week and as part of mixed pace work on the roads during "B" week.

The strength of our program is at the 1600/3200 distance, but we've had some success at 800m (1 state champion in the last 5 years). I would make no claim that our program is optimal for 800m runners. The only reason I responded to your message was your concern about a lack of fast work in the early phases - I don't think it should be a concern. Lay a proper foundation with strength training (free weights & body weight), hills, and firm aerobic work in the first phases and you will be ready for outstanding performances in May/June.

For those who like to parse things too closely...

"Lay a proper foundation with strength training (free weights & body weight), hills, and firm aerobic work in the first phases and you will be ready for outstanding performances in May/June."

Given that you do the necessary work in the subsequent phases!

CanadaCoach wrote:

He's alright for the early phases, but his lack of knowledge about speed training, speed end, special endurance would lead me to move away from his system in the track pre-season for 800 and 1500m runners.

Yeah, JD's never had any success as a coach. Oh, wait.....

Another Option and Daniels' Disciple - Thank you for your input. Another Option, you have some great suggestions and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I hope to hear from others who follow Daniels' programs.

O.K. with the M pace. I skipped chapt. 6 because I was not interested in marathon training and I saw no M pace in chapt. 16.

Daniels' Disciple - I am guessing that Fernadez' coach can be pure Daniels because of the climate in California.

They can do the F workouts, in late February, because they have been able to work up to that pace with some R and I work in January. We in the upper north do not have that luxury. Does that make sense?

And to the coach who commented on the perceived toughness of the week 16 and/or 17 I agree with you. I doubt that I would ever attempt that unless I was able to go through phase II as suggested. Those 3 days back to back seem brutal. Am I way wrong on this?

That is why I am interested in more coaches from the cold and snowy north to see how they handle Daniels with no indoor track.

Thank you.

If you don't have indoor track, then why are you doing "workouts" now? Use the winter to strengthen your base miles (which can be done in the cold & snow). Throw in some hilly runs, some fartleks, some long runs, & even some tempo runs. Use the 10% rule & keep increasing your miles slowly & safely.

Then, as outdoor season begins, listen to your track coach. By the way, when does your outdoor season begin?

If your track coach isn't using Daniels, I bet he'd love to listen to your passion about the sport, borrow your book, photocopy pages, & instill it into the spring season.

gee whiz wrote:

Yeah, JD's never had any success as a coach. Oh, wait.....

So who has he coached?

well. wrote:

I think the biggest problem with his 800/1500 programs is the lack of anything faster than 800 pace. Mid distance runners need to do some 400m pace running as well as some all out sprinting. The programs also lack specific speed endurance training.

I agree. I like the general 800/1500 program, but we also add some 400m pace running for our fast-twitch-type runners: 60s, 150s, 200s. That's just critical for those coming at the 800 from a sprinter/400 runner's perspective.

primus wrote:

So who has he coached?

"Jack Daniels has been head track and cross-country coach for both men and women at the State University of New York at Cortland since 1986. Under his guidance, Cortland runners have won seven NCAA Division III National Championships, 24 individual national titles, and more than 110 All-America awards. Called "The World’s Best Coach" by Runner’s World magazine, Daniels’ has advised some of America’s finest runners, including Jim Ryun, Alberto Salazar, Joan Benoit Samuelson, Doug Padilla, and Ken Martin."