10 mile steady state type run - what feedback does this type of workout provide

There is no such thing as steady state.

Sounds like you could use some mile reps.

Make them about 15"/mile faster than the pace you

ran today. The rest should be short, walking or waiting,

not granny jogging.

If there is no such thing as Steady State, then how can he run 15s per mile faster than it?

dsrunner thanks, the steady state reference was just used as a description, basically was a med-hard effort

as far as the mile reps go, how many and length of rest?

know you are an advocate of quality over mindless quantity miles, what advice to have for a masters runner(43) and been running for 11 years. My main struggle is with weight, I am 5'9" and 160lbs at the moment. My PR's were set at a lower weight (150-152) but seem to put on weight very easily.

In the first half of a training cycle, if you are a standard 1500 - 10k runner, this type of long-fast run should be your bread and butter. It is not a measure of being able to race fast, but it is a measure of improved aerobic strength that translates to being able to improve your anaerobic threshold (~5k ability), which if you are a middle distance runner and resistance-based, rather than speed-based, this improved anaerobic threshold will allow you to, to oversimplify, improve your ability to produce lactate at higher quantities and get rid of it faster. Essentially, if your 90' run is the beginning of a chain, the long-fast run of roughly 60' is the next step towards running faster. If you really want to try to mix it up after a long period of consistent training with no race improvements, try replacing one of your two workouts each week with a progressively more challenging long-fast run. Example:

1. Week 1: your first 'sub-par' 60' run is in the books (any first-time effort at a new stress will produce a mediocre result; this is not a measure of absolute ability or whether it works in helping you get faster)

2. Week 2: try running 50' a bit faster

3. Week 3: try running 40', then 1'30" jog, then 15' as fast as week 2

4. Week 4: try running 50' faster than weeks 2 & 3

5. Week 5: try running 55' as fast as week 4

6. Week 6: try running 60' starting slower than week 5 and finishing faster

For a mental and physical benefit, start conservatively each week and try to progress and / or maintain a constant pace the second half of the run. Don't practice going slower throughout a training session if you want your mind and body to attenuate to finishing races at higher efforts and faster paces.

Good luck!

I just do the opposite of whatever "ds runner has the day off" says... works pretty well for me.

How short of a rest?

Steady states (tempos, but without the dumb trying too hard where you lose the aerobic aspect) are the bread and butter of a good distance training program. Most elite distance coaches use this run often. Keep doing it once a week or every other week.

general question. what is this "steady state" pace supposed to be? mcmillan says roughly half marathon pace or a little slower. how would it relate to a daniels-type 20 minute run at T-pace?

thanks long and fast, how about using your 6 week progression in place of my 90min run, to be honest getting real bored with running easy for 90min every week and really don't feel like it's a benefit at all

Skip - good question and there are many good answers, some of which emphasize the physiological, some the psychological, some both. How you treat a long run in your training, in my opinion, depends where your emphasis lies in racing at the end of roughly a 6-month cycle. The longer your goal race (5,000m +), the more important having a consistent long-run every 7-14 days becomes.If you are bored, it probably means you're no longer getting a fitness benefit and your body is stale with it. Trust that instinct and develop in other ways besides the cookie-cookie program of 2 workouts and a long run every week. Try something like this:Let's say your primary race is the 1500 or the 5000 coming from the 1500 rather than the 10k:Space your long run out to once every 2 weeks. In the middle week, complete a 75' modified long run where you build up your speed throughout, hitting a period where you are at your 60' long-fast pace and then go beyond that near the end. This will help build the strength to increasing the stress within your actual 60' runs and make the 90' long runs seem a bit like a gift. Let's say your primary race is the 5000 or 10000:Complete a shorter long-fast tempo (say, 20'-40') each week plus one of a 50'-70' variety. The shorter tempo would be faster than the longer tempo. Each week, set out to do a long run of at least 80', but at 40' or 50', start increasing the effort and if you feel good, try to stretch the long run beyond 90' on that day. If you don't feel good by the time you get to 80', simply cut it off and do a shorter long run that week so you're not slogging through. If every 1-3 weeks you feel good and are running fast beyond 90', then you're strength will improve. This is never a bad thing.Note: You are essentially trying to build a bridge between these types of training (ie., long reps (1k-3k), short tempos (20-40'), long tempos (50' - 75'), and long runs (75' - 100')) that, for sake of space, I am suggesting are inherent to building a long-term improvement curve without a full justification. I am saying these things assuming a certain amount of philosophical agreement. How deep into your ~6-month cycle you want to take these different components comes back, again, to what your goal race is and what your philosophies are in terms of supporting and specific work in the peak race season.

skip wrote:

thanks long and fast, how about using your 6 week progression in place of my 90min run, to be honest getting real bored with running easy for 90min every week and really don't feel like it's a benefit at all

As for your original question, I don't think you implied you should only progress for six weeks, but just in case, I don't want to give you an impression that is not in line with my beliefs. That is, a long-fast run necessitates well-beyond a 6-week progression. I believe it's something you want to be continuously developing through the majority of every 6-month cycle. I simply left it at 6 to get you started and, after that, either use your internal measures as your way to extend your efforts or simply follow a logical extension of that beginning 6-week model and stretch it to 12 - 16 weeks by, among other methods, increasing the pace and going beyond 60'.

A final note for this post: ask yourself why you run easy for an entire 90'. At some point, you do get an aerobic benefit by being out there that long. But you can get more out of it mentally and physically - which is one way to keep it fresh - by making it more challenging?

To take, admittedly, an oversimplified stance by looking at the merits of philosophies that have dominated distance running the last 30-40 years, can we suppose that a combination of quality and quantity has been the catalyst to the evolution in speed seen in the 5k - Marathon the past 15 years, rather than an adherence to one of those ideologies?

If yes, then we can run long to race long races, but run fast, as well, to run those long races faster.

Run long and fast. Get better. Period.

long and fast wrote:

As for your original question, I don't think you implied you should only progress for six weeks, but just in case, I don't want to give you an impression that is not in line with my beliefs. .

Should read:

'I don't want to give you an impression that only a 6-week progression is in line with my beliefs.'

long and fast,

I don't follow a 6 month cycle, just basically do the same all year with some race specific work closer to races. Mistake on my part, maybe causing the staleness/plateau?

Without going into to much detail what would a 6 month cycle look like?

also long and fast, what your opinion about weight, like I mentioned currently 5'9" 160lbs and have difficulty losing weight, PR's set at 150-153lbs

What is your favorite race?

What race are you best suited for in terms of talent?

Do you pick races when you are healthy, or do you point towards races at different points?

These are questions for you to answer. Then take the knowledge you've garnered, some of which comes from NOT improving, and suggestions like those from this board and well-respected training books. If you are a college athlete, ignore everything here and listen to your coach.

Very generic for 1500 - 5k (won't prepare you that well if you are a speed-based 800-1500m runner or 10k - Marathon):

Weeks 10-14: build global volume and increasing speed of long-fast runs (see previous post as to the lengths) to their 6-month peak; in second half of those weeks, begin adding in longer pace work at 3k (400 - 1.5k reps up to total vol ~5k) and 5k (800 - 2.5k reps up to total vol ~8k) speeds with short recovery (no longer than equal to duration of rep).

Weeks 12-22: begin focusing on increasing the total volume and individual lengths of reps at 3k (up to ~7k) and 5k (up to 11k) pacing while also increasing the pace; do not modulate in all of these directions in each workout. Pick only one. If you race at the 1500 distance, begin doing reps (400-1k) between 3k and 1500 pace with rest equal or greater to running time.

Weeks 22-26 (race season): Begin 600-1200 reps at 1500 pace (total volume 2k-3k) with substantial rest if you focus on the 1500. If you focus on the 5000, stay mostly away from those types of reps and continue modulating short-fast tempos and 3k-5k work. Run races relaxed. Have fun. Be tough.

skip wrote:

also long and fast, what your opinion about weight, like I mentioned currently 5'9" 160lbs and have difficulty losing weight, PR's set at 150-153lbs

Eat lean, unfried meats (e.g., fish). Stay away from wasted energy sources like soda and white bread. Don't get hurt and increase your global training volume for 1-3 years. Your body will find it's right weight, but more importantly, you'll have the training background to handle more work related to your goal races. This makes you faster, no matter your size. If you want to repeat what you did before (in this case, by finding that exact weight), this could be you stuck with the mindset that doing what you did before will produce a different (i.e., new PR) result. This is the definition of crazy.

Taking a direct idea from Peter Gilmore and his quote-of-the-day from earlier this fall regarding all the sidebar factors that seem to preoccupy people's minds: just forget all that stuff and learn how to train more.

Good luck!

The best way to lose weight is count calories. If you are active beside running, go for 1,000 less than normal. If you have a desk job and don't do much active beside running, you may want to only cut out 500 calories a day. The first option will drop 2 lbs a week and the second 1 lb a week. It is very hard to lose without counting calories because it is easy to just grab something and snack on.

I didn't run for years and stayed about 150. When I first started, I got down to 140. I then got down to 135 when I was about 40. At 45 this summer, I was able to get down to 131-132. In the winter when I am not racing, I gain 5 or 6 lbs as it is very hard to keep race weight especially when I am not working as hard.

As for the training, I like to do progression runs. On the days I am feeling good, I may get down to tempo effort for 3 or 4 miles. On the other days, I may run closer to even splits. I pounded out the intervals and tempos in past years but I was able to age grade the same this past summer with very little structure to each workout. I alternated between hilly and flat road runs and very hilly trail runs with a good share of races thrown in. Of course I was training just as hard, but didn't feel the need to go to the track and do 400s at an exact pace to know my training was going well. I saved that for the races. They were the only feedback I needed.

long and fast wrote:

What is your favorite race?

What race are you best suited for in terms of talent?

Do you pick races when you are healthy, or do you point towards races at different points?

These are questions for you to answer. Then take the knowledge you've garnered, some of which comes from NOT improving, and suggestions like those from this board and well-respected training books. If you are a college athlete, ignore everything here and listen to your coach.

5k/10k road races with one 1/2 marathon per year, most races from April to October (road race series)

skip wrote:

long and fast wrote:

What is your favorite race?

What race are you best suited for in terms of talent?

Do you pick races when you are healthy, or do you point towards races at different points?

These are questions for you to answer. Then take the knowledge you've garnered, some of which comes from NOT improving, and suggestions like those from this board and well-respected training books. If you are a college athlete, ignore everything here and listen to your coach.

5k/10k road races with one 1/2 marathon per year, most races from April to October (road race series)

Don't do the shorter 1500m work. Try to extend the short-fast tempos eventually up towards 50' - 60' and the long-fast tempos above 75'. Your long run should get above 100.' If you can consistently get over 70mi/week, that will help begin to address the needs of a 5k and 10k. To be competitive at the 10k and half, it will need to be higher simply to include enough long-fast running to really get at the needs of those events. At this point, your global volume really only allows you to be competitive at the 5k, so use those other races to focus on the 5k if you don't want to increase your training time. To add 10 miles, you're obviously looking at another hour per week, at least. Ideally, you'd get up to 75 or 80 at your peak in the next 6months. Again, you could simply run more long-fast runs at your current volume and feel more prepared for the 5k and 10k, however.

I would recommend adding a second long-fast tempo run of 45' - 70' each week as you get more used to this type of run. Here's what three weeks could look like in your peak volume weeks in the middle of the 6 months:

1 10 easy

2 12 total with 10 fast

3 10 easy

4 8 total with 6 faster

5 10 easy

6 10 easy

7 10 total with 5 mi @ 5k

[70 mi]

8 10 easy

9 10 easy

10 13 long run progressing

11 10 easy

12 12 total with 10 fast

13 10 easy

14 9 total with 3.5 mi @ 3k

[74 mi]

15 10 easy

16 10 easy

17 13 total with 11 fast

18 10 easy

19 9 total with 7 faster

20 10 easy

21 12 total with 10 fast

[74 mi]

Running by feel is very difficult for me, the 10miler I did yesterday was in 67:39 and felt a little fast right now for that length of time. I plan to start doing a 20min fast run and a 50min fast run each week but really don't know what pace or effort to go by. The 10miles was at roughly 6:45 pace and guessing that where I should start the 50min run at, correct? If so what pace for the 20min run, guessing maybe 6:15-6:20ish.