slowest times ever ran by elites

???

Gerry Lindgren didn't even make varsity as a freshman in high school. Then he started running more mileage than anyone ever heard of and he became one of the greatest high school runners of all time.

I am a coach at a community college. I have seen athletes drop anywhere from 5-15 minutes off of their first times for 5 miles within 2-3 years. I know they are not "elite" athletes now but I am happy to see their improvement and so are they.

It isn't so much how slow you are when you start but how much you improve every 6 months to a year that will tell you have talent.

I ran 5:30 for the mile in 8th grade and 5:05 and 10:46 for 3200 in 9th grade and eventually ran 8:46 as a senior and 13:38 for 5000 by age 19.

I don't understand the training pace question? As you get in better shape that will drop. Even still IO rarely ran faster than 6:20 pace on overdistance runs. I knew some runners who hardly ever ran a step over 6:00 pace and soem who actually ran 8:00 pace and were All-Americans.

I don't think it matters how you start off but how much you manage to improve. Like the Kenyans a lot of them like Duncan Kibet(2nd fastest man in history) I heard ran really slow when they started out but improved drastically. When I think of natural runners I think of ones who can keep a high mileage or can improve very quickly.

free beer wrote:

It isn't so much how slow you are when you start but how much you improve every 6 months to a year that will tell you have talent.

But is that really true? Has there ever been an elite miler, for example, who ran a eight minute mile the first time they ever tried it? I'm not talking training pace here, I'm talking about a pretty hard effort.

I think, btw, the answer is "no". I'm pretty sure that the first time KB ran a 5K he ran it 5 minutes faster than I have ever run one in my life. Oh, sure, he's trained it even lower, and that's why he's great, but even when he was a nothing he was still much, much faster than me.

Ryan Hall first run, assuming you believe the story, was a painful 15 miler. At altitude. I would conjecture that most people out there couldn't do that as their first run. Even back as a rank beginner, he was still way better than most of us.

Jim Ryun has said on his first run he had to stop and walk. On his first Cross Country workout his sophomore year, he was so sore the next day he could barely get out of bed and nearly quit right then and there.

Is that really true? He just gave you Gerry Lindgren as an example. I'll throw in Jim Ryun as an example too. Didn't make varsity either and ended up running sub4 in high school.

M.C. Confusing wrote:

Jim Ryun has said on his first run he had to stop and walk. On his first Cross Country workout his sophomore year, he was so sore the next day he could barely get out of bed and nearly quit right then and there.

i had a similar experience. was unable to make it 3miles on my first day of track practice. 10 years later im running 85-90mpw.

Didn't make varsity? He won his state meet the first year (freshman went to a different school back then. I think he got cut from the JV team). For what it is worth, I am sure some kenyan guy didn't break 8 in his first mile race and then ran sub 4. He was probably like 5 at the time though.

holla baby wrote:

Is that really true? He just gave you Gerry Lindgren as an example. I'll throw in Jim Ryun as an example too. Didn't make varsity either and ended up running sub4 in high school.

Ok I would believe that no future sub 4:00 miler went out in an honest effort and only ran 8:00. I bet there have been some who ran over 6:00 in 6th or 7th grade. And then quickly improved.

My state did a big survey of all the sub 4:12 high school milers over the years. Most ran between 4:30 and 4:40 as freshman with one or two at 4:50.

So that would leave be to believe that right away as 12 year olds if they competed they were running 5:30 to 6:00 miles which is fast for the general population and shows inherent talent for endurance. All without training. I was the only one over 5:00 as a freshman however I didn't run a step until February that season and really only got to compete for about 6 weeks.

"Jim Ryun has said on his first run he had to stop and walk. On his first Cross Country workout his sophomore year, he was so sore the next day he could barely get out of bed and nearly quit right then and there"

well he still coulda ran a 18 min 5k, being sore or walking for a little doesn't change the fact that at the begginng he prob ran <6 min miles

I was 6:15 in 6th grade and only 5:48 in 8th.

That's disingenuous, I never actually ran more than a mile in practice until 9th when I ran 4:52 off of 2 months of training. I miss being able to PR by 10 seconds once a week...

I've always heard that there are two components to natural talent: 1) how fast one can run without training, and 2) responsiveness to training. So, runner A may could go out and run 5 minutes his first time out and 4:30 off the best training in the world, whereas runner B may run 8 minutes his first time out and 3:5x off proper training. I'm sure there are a few elites or near elites out there that don't run to well right off the bat but respond extremely well to training. Brian Sell, who didn't manage to break ten in high school but managed to go 2:10 and make an Olympic team is everyone here's favorite example.

Sell was a one season runner in HS and I thought his mile was about 4:30 . Thats a decent amount of talent. If he gone to york or another school that trained he would have been 4:1x/9:0x type guy and we wouldn't be hearing this blue collar crap.

An Historian wrote:

I've always heard that there are two components to natural talent: 1) how fast one can run without training, and 2) responsiveness to training. So, runner A may could go out and run 5 minutes his first time out and 4:30 off the best training in the world, whereas runner B may run 8 minutes his first time out and 3:5x off proper training. I'm sure there are a few elites or near elites out there that don't run to well right off the bat but respond extremely well to training. Brian Sell, who didn't manage to break ten in high school but managed to go 2:10 and make an Olympic team is everyone here's favorite example.

An Historian wrote:

Brian Sell, who didn't manage to break ten in high school but managed to go 2:10 and make an Olympic team is everyone here's favorite example.

This example is so silly. 10:00 for 2 miles in high school is a well above-average level of talent. Maybe not an indicator of Olympic talent, sure, but it's still talent.

it all depends on who you are. some people just have a sharp improvement curve. i went from a pr of 6:11 after 11th grade to 4:02 after senior year. my only big change was getting off crack. i acknowledge that not everybody is as talented as i am, being able to lop 2+ minutes off in a year, but anything is possible with the right training.

I am not a "good" runner by any stretch of the imagination, but I started with absolutely zero natural talent so I'm happy with my current fitness. If you stopped all of the elite athletes from training for 6 months, and then told them to run a mile all out on the track, I'm sure you would still have guys run in the 4 minute range. Natural talent comes in the form of general fitness and your aerobic system. Guys like Gebreselassie would probably still be a world record holder (though it would be much slower) if training didn't exist. You can say what you want about having a large base of training and whatnot, but natural talent is a huge part of running. The good thing (well good for runners like me) is that in high school cross and track, natural talent doesn't count for nearly as much.

Who runs an 8:00 mile in their first track season? Maybe in 3rd or 4th grade.