Increasing Ethanol Amount in Gasoline

Absolutely stupid policy. Make the Iowa caucus move to later in the calendar and this goes away.

Well it's impossible to create energy. Ethanol is just another way of storing solar energy. Unfortunately it's less efficient than digging up oil, so you're right - ethanol is not a good way to go. Farm lobbies have lots of power, though, so good luck fighting it.

Using plants to power our cars? What better way to operate? I think it's great!

It is great at inflating food prices. Of course the Republicans want to make sure their supporters get their pork....

xczvzsfad wrote:

Using plants to power our cars? What better way to operate? I think it's great!

What's more important: energy independence or cheaper HFCS? You know the answer. Plants Fuel Cars (PFC)!!

xczvzsfad wrote:

Using plants to power our cars? What better way to operate? I think it's great!

How about we use plants that aren't part of the food chain? Corn ethanol is a waste of time and money and food. Corn is a highly nutrient inensive crop, so you need to use more fertilizers and pesticides to get the crop to grow, which uses fuel. Then you have to harvest and transport it, more fuel. The you have to process it into ethanol and deliver it, more fuel. Once it is in the engine, it is less efficient than gas, so you have to use more of it to do the same amount of work. Thats an awful long way to go just to feel better about ourselves.

Personally, I think fuel cells and/or electricity are the way of the future for automobiles.

xczvzsfad wrote:

What's more important: energy independence or cheaper HFCS? You know the answer. Plants Fuel Cars (PFC)!!

But if you're burning more than a BTU of fossil fuel to create a BTU of ethanol, it really doesn't make any sense.

It's important to send the right message to our kids. The U.S. will continue to struggle in regard to energy independence until ALL vehicles sold and operated in this country are E85 at a minimum.

xczvzsfad wrote:

It's important to send the right message to our kids. The U.S. will continue to struggle in regard to energy independence until ALL vehicles sold and operated in this country are E85 at a minimum.

It isn't going to help us until we can make cellulosic ethanol happen. Energy independence sounds nice, but the tractors and semi trucks hauling all of this before it gets into our cars are using foreign oil.

I do agree that cellulosic ethanol needs to happen. This country has dumped a lot of money into that research, and I think we're getting closer. There are still some technical and cost hurdles, but it may happen.

nerp wrote:

xczvzsfad wrote:

Using plants to power our cars? What better way to operate? I think it's great!

How about we use plants that aren't part of the food chain? Corn ethanol is a waste of time and money and food. Corn is a highly nutrient inensive crop, so you need to use more fertilizers and pesticides to get the crop to grow, which uses fuel. Then you have to harvest and transport it, more fuel. The you have to process it into ethanol and deliver it, more fuel. Once it is in the engine, it is less efficient than gas, so you have to use more of it to do the same amount of work. Thats an awful long way to go just to feel better about ourselves.

Personally, I think fuel cells and/or electricity are the way of the future for automobiles.

Fuel cells don't look very promising right now. Although they produce much much lower emissions than normal fuel, the technology is still very expensive. You also have to worry about building fuel cell recharging stations around the entire country.

Electric cars are not as expensive and are a good alternative, but you still have to worry about recharging stations as well.

Electrics cars also use fossil-based electricity. BEHOLD THE POWER OF ORGANIC MATTER! BOW BEFORE IT!

EPA being sued over ethanol requirements in gasoline:

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/186853/group/homepage/

nerp wrote:

Personally, I think fuel cells and/or electricity are the way of the future for automobiles.

You're stupid. Both of these are energy storage techniques. The ethanol/gas debate is what we use as an energy source.

Of course, in the end gasoline is a (renewable) solar energy storage device too, but that's beside the point.

An Engineer wrote:

Both of these are energy storage techniques. The ethanol/gas debate is what we use as an energy source.

It's clear from context that this isn't what "nerp" had in mind, but there exist practical direct methanol fuel cells and experimental direct ethanol fuel cells. Neither is anywhere close to being practical for automotive use.

I have a better solution. Let's just consume less energy. i.e. more public transit and better urban planning going forward.

xczvzsfad wrote:

It's important to send the right message to our kids. The U.S. will continue to struggle in regard to energy independence until ALL vehicles sold and operated in this country are E85 at a minimum.

The right message being it doesn't matter if your project is a boondoggle. buy off a couple senators and get rich off the taxpayer.Maybe some day ethanol would be a reasonable choice. But when ethanol means Corn ethanol, we are just wasting money. It is high subisdized (2x as much a solar), inefficient, and even if everything worked out it will not scale enough to give any energy independance.And as far as the electric car, they can be powered off hydro (upstate ny), wind (texas), nuclear (scattered here and there) or solar (CA). Does a lot of work need to be done before electrical cars are the future? Yep. I still electric cars are still about 10 years away (need to double the battery capacity once more and the quarter cost) but a fuel cell car looks to be more like 20 (read the press releases from the early 90s and compare them today. They are identical).

xczvzsfad wrote:

It's important to send the right message to our kids. The U.S. will continue to struggle in regard to energy independence until ALL vehicles sold and operated in this country are E85 at a minimum.

You need to be patient. Ethanol will make up a large portion of our energy future....it will work out, but we need more subsidies. Once in place, we'll be happy we stuck it out.

I am smart wrote:

I have a better solution. Let's just consume less energy. i.e. more public transit and better urban planning going forward.

xczvzsfad wrote:

It's important to send the right message to our kids. The U.S. will continue to struggle in regard to energy independence until ALL vehicles sold and operated in this country are E85 at a minimum.

This requires personal responsibility. We are Americans. We do not bow to anyone's whims. Even other Americans. Do not encroach on my personal freedoms with your demands.