Will the US ever have a high-speed rail transportation network that rivals those found in Europe and Asia?

High Speed wrote:

Any thoughts? After WI declined the approximate $800 million to build and upgrade rail transportation infrastructure, this question came to mind.

it would be real nice, but i see 4 big problems.

1. money-already facing huge budget shortfalls would need private sector backing. i believe amtrak costs taxpayers roughly 2 billion a year. also, would have to make the project profitable.

2. infrastructure within cities-we would need good bus and taxi systems within all cities to make it worthwhile.

3. US is large-High speed rail makes sense in densely populated areas like europe and asia (korea/japan), but is not cost effective in rural areas.

4. gas prices-as long as gas prices stay relatively low, it is much more convenient to simply drive your car.

The U.S will develop a new car industry and new non-gas propulsion.

The amount of Iron and Steel, high grade, for high speed trains will be ridiculous. High Speed rail just doesn't work unless you are Europe or China or Japan.

Its about Population density, and in Asia they literally live stacked on top of each other, thats why they come here to America.

But if they don't get my dang order right and pronounce their R's correctly, we should send them back just like all the Egg rolls I've had to send back.

High-speed rail lines should be restricted to northeast corridor. 1) Amtrak is profitable along the Northeast corridor3) Northeast corridor is densely populated

AFADFAD wrote:

1. money-already facing huge budget shortfalls would need private sector backing. i believe amtrak costs taxpayers roughly 2 billion a year. also, would have to make the project profitable.

3. US is large-High speed rail makes sense in densely populated areas like europe and asia (korea/japan), but is not cost effective in rural areas.

Not just the Northeast, but the midwest-Chicago, West coast, and probably Miami-Atlanta, and later a line across the country.

But nothing all encompasing for every city like Japan, China, or Europe.

America is too spread out, cars make more sense. Cars powered by V2G networks, natural gas, ethanol, hydrogen, whatever.

I question the notion that Amtrak is profitable even in the NE corridor. Do those lines pay the FULL cost of service including salaries, maintenance, retirement, etc?

My answer is no for a variety of reasons.

1) Despite the hard on the eco-weenies have for rail service, some eco group will block a rail line with an overly expensive fight over something like the preble mouse.

2) Buying the land necessary. Yes, government can condemn and take property (even easier now with that awful Kelo decision) but they still have to pay for it. People will either hold out for more money and drive up the cost or fight the land confiscation and drive up cost.

3) Government programs have no incentive to be profitable. Everyone knows that once a fed program gets rolling, Congress will keep throwing good money after bad. Heck look at ethanol---perhaps the worst subsidy ever. (Even Al Gore now thinks ethanol is a bad idea!).

4) Flying is pretty cheap, especially when you factor in time. In the NE it can rival flying because of the TSA and other hassles and because flying from NY to Boston probably takes longer than the train (or even a bus--I think you can get a bus for $20). However, what happens when TSA type security comes to Amtrak? Down goes its advantage.

Europe has a great rail system. It is also highly, highly subsidized with taxpayer funds. Let's see the real cost of that ticket.

For the record, the US taxpayers pay some subsidies for air travel in the US (not talking about building airports or paying FAA, talking about the cost of an airline ticket).

Please, stop the subsidies. That would make a decent dent in the deficit.

Do those auto company bailouts count as subsidies?

this site claims that automobile subsidies amount to 8 to 10 percent of GNP. And that building rail lines results in many more jobs per dollar spent.

http://www.assmotax.org/Releases/AMCT%20release:%20The%20Automobile%20Subsidy.php

uhh no.

take a look at europe when compared to the u.s.

http://goeurope.about.com/od/europeanmaps/l/bl-country-size-comparison-map.htm

consider that the entire country of austria is the size of the state of maine - that puts things into perspective.

I have a feeling that Wisconsin is going to regret that decision in 10 or 20 years if not before. Whether rail is economically optimum in a low density area is doubtful but it would be nice to connect major cities. Most things this gov't subsidizes don't make much sense or could be argued thus, e.g. wars, ethanol, education, research, healthcare, etc.

had a japanese college student stay at our house with us in colorado. he asked - can i drive to new york this weekend? he and most other japanese have no idea about the scale/size of the u.s. the same goes for most euopeans.

Do you believe there is enough demand in the USA to warrant it?

I thought all Asians were intelligent?

Obama is stuck in Bush's retro-Imperialism fantasy. Obama thinks he can deny Islam their God Given Human Rights. Until he shuts down the wars, we'll have no money for high speed rail. I hope the minimal efforts at least are standardized to that the rolling stock and control systems are interoperable so that in the future they can be seamlessly connected.

I don't understand why Obama does not respect the human rights of Muslims and allow them to live in their ancient homeland of Palestine as free people.

Why do Americans pat themselves on the back when they treat some groups as human beings and then at the same time shoot Muslims in the back, steal their land, bulldoze down Mosques, deploy nuclear weapons in their sacred lands, etc. It's disgusting and unfair.

People forget that in the 40s when the British were defeated, that the Arabs did not agree the UN having any say in the Middle East. Thus, the foreign Europeans in Palestine are today considered illegal aliens. The occupation regime called 'Israel' is not recognized as legitimate by the Arabs nor by Islam.

You remain short-sighted.

I take it that you don't include Great Britain when you mention Europe!

Rail travel in the UK is appalling to say the least. 3rd rate at best! And who invented the train??

luv2run wrote:

Heck look at ethanol---perhaps the worst subsidy ever.

The damage done from ethanol is absolutely trivial compared to the damage done from agriculture subsidies, esp corn.

There are some good points brought up in this thread. I've worked for one of New York's three commuter Railroads here are some thoughts regarding HSR.

-Will only work on densely populated corridors. If you're going across the country you should fly (which is way more subsidized than you would expect) 500 miles is about the cutoff point of HSR effectiveness.

-Its possible to make an operating profit. The US should follow the EU model where the Country owns the rights of way and tracks and Private organizations can run routes.

-Amtrak is a useless visonless chronically underfunded terminally imcopmetant agency and should be kept far away. Most of our elite staff are former Amtrak, they're nothing but a bunch of political hacks not, all that different from most of the people that started in this agency that weren't railroaders to start.

- US rail infrastructure is owned by Freight railroads except for the NEC (North East Corridor) which has the fastest trains in the US. Amtrak can't run on time on their own railroad. Freight railroads Union Pacific in particular dislike passenger trains. We do have the best freight system in the country. I think it would be better to see more freight moved by rail unclogging roads and having strong regional networks around cities than HSR.

-Most railroad rights of way in the US were built in the 1840's-1880's they're very windy to go around property lines and have lots of grades they're not conducive to HSR.

Dallas has the Dart rail system. Very helpful and very convinent. www.dart.org. I wish more US cities adatped this idea. I mean Dallas is one of the cities in the US who is trying to survuve the recession and the just opened up a whole new rail line and have more ont he way.

dsrunner has the day off wrote:

Do those auto company bailouts count as subsidies?

Not a subsidy by my usual definition, but not something that I think should have happened. They were done mainly to pay back unions. Let the companies file for bankruptcy and reorganize debt.

I do not plan on buying a car from any of those companies, but then the odds were that I would not have anyway either.