Craig Virgin Comments: World Cross Country

Nothing we didn't already know.

No reason why we can't challenge for the podium spot with these guys in the mix:

Rupp

Ritz

Solinsky

Tegenkamp

Webb

XC has been the strong hold of Africans.

Truth Sayer wrote:

Nothing we didn't already know.

No reason why we can't challenge for the podium spot with these guys in the mix:

Rupp

Ritz

Solinsky

Tegenkamp

Webb

There are plenty of reason why we can't challenge for a spot on the podium, mainly:

The only way those guys will ever go to world xc again is if you carry them to the airport in a gilded litter and put them up in a luxury spa with rose petal bathwater.

"Many have gone to the U.S. Trials...but opted not to go to Worlds. Why? Often the $$$ involved with a spring marathon appearance fee contract! That's part of the story. The other part is a lack of national pride...and patriotism... like we felt...back in the day."

I think the above is BS. If Virgin would have had the opportunity to run a spring marathon with a big enough appearance fee and the chance to get some meaningful prize money, I'm guessing that he would have run the marathon over World XC.

Sure national pride and patriotism weigh into the decision, but when there is serious money on the other side of the scale, the choice isn't so easy. Elite runners have a short shelf life and it can end at any point with an injury, I can't blame them for taking the dough.

Plus, I'd be pretty damn happy if Ritz or Meb or anther American won London or Boston (although admittedly not as happy as if the US got on the podium at World XC.)

DruWan wrote:

I think the above is BS.

Even the ignorant has access to the internet these days.

"Anthropologically speaking, we are living in a money culture. Its cults and rites dominate." John Dewey, Individualism Old and New

He wrote this in 1929, and since then the cult and its rituals have only grown more ridiculous.

Distance runners should take pride in their values over and above the money they earn. These values will last--the reason we admire all the greats, why they live on in our minds, our culture, and in our strivings to emulate them has to do with the lives that these folks lived, not their pocketbooks.

Finally, the only money you have that is worth having is the money that follows value. The rest is unearned.

[quote]DruWan wrote:

I think the above is BS. If Virgin would have had the opportunity to run a spring marathon with a big enough appearance fee and the chance to get some meaningful prize money, I'm guessing that he would have run the marathon over World XC.

actually craig virgin finished 2nd in boston in 1981, 3 weeks after he had won the 1981 world xc.

bill rodgers ran the first sub 2:10 by an american 3 weeks after his world xc 3rd place finish.

a couple of years ago shami of qatar was 8th in world xc championships then 2-3 weeks later won paris in 2:07:19 in unusually hot conditions.

if someone can run well in world xc, they can run a good marathon.

Are you suggesting that Virgin didn't have chances to run spring marathons for big appearance fees?

I'm just happy CV gives enough of a kcuf to take a position however controversial he might be. There's so many forner great track athletes and runners who don't give a rats ass about us anymore or don't have the balls to take a stand and defend their opinions.

From my knowledge, there was not much for appearance fees back then. I'm not saying that Virgin is giving us a line of BS, but I remember when it was a big deal to learn that Bill might have gotten $10,000 to run NY one year, I believe in 79' but I'm not positive. One Virgin's side, if one of these guys did really well at the World CC Championship, I think they would be compensated quite well by Nike or whoever anyways. Having a picture of Dathan or any of them doing well and wearing this or that shoe is quite valuable for marketing to high school cc runners. Not argueing, just throwing something out there to think about. Carry on mates!

How much did Virgin get to run Boston in 1981. Was he paid an appearance fee? I'd be curious, real curious with Seko and Rodgers there if he got much at all. Just asking.

Ten grand went a lot further in 1980 or so than it does now and there were even bigger payments.

Nice website, but the link does go to the about quote about CV?...please provide

With all due respect HRE?, I know that and I honestly assumed everyone did being that it was 30 plus years ago that we are talking about. The $10,000 for Bill may have been more, but that figure was thrown out in a magazine and I remember it well. Bill did not run the 1981 NYC Marthon when Alberto went for his record, but he was suppose to up till the very end. If I recall correctly, that too was about money, not Bill being unprepared.

Honestly, I don't know who you are or what you've run as in "Malmo is George Malley" and "HRE is ?", but unless you can back it up that there were even bigger payments for a guy like Virgin running one Boston Marathon, then your statement is just words.

Not saying that I would blame Virgin for running a marathon for money versus CC or skipping one and running CC instead, but that's not my call, it's his. He did the training, not me or you, so he picks the race, just as Dathan and Ryan can today.

no dog in this fight, but wrote:

From my knowledge, there was not much for appearance fees back then. I'm not saying that Virgin is giving us a line of BS, but I remember when it was a big deal to learn that Bill might have gotten $10,000 to run NY one year, I believe in 79' but I'm not positive.

I'm pretty sure that, for the '78 NYC marathon, BR was reported to have received 10k to "appear" (or whatever they chose to call his duties) and another 10k for the win. I don't know about '79. But things were changing rapidly. According to Sandrock, BR said that he made about 600k from endorsements, races, and clinics in 1983 -- well after his peak as an athlete. I doubt that any American distance runners these days make anywhere close to what BR and Shorter made, on an inflation-adjusted basis, in the "amateur" era before over-the-counter prize money and appearance fees. And I would guess that Virgin (either directly or through his corporation, Front Runner Inc.) did very well, too. He certainly knew how to market himself.

Obviously, the world cross championsips have changed since the early to mid-80s, when American male runners like Virgin, Porter, and Salazar were major players. Still, I would love to see top Americans at the world cross championships again. To my mind, it's still the greatest distance race on the planet (following the unfortunate experiment with the short course alternative).

A guy made a comment here implying that he knew what Virgin would have done if things in his day were like they are today. He gave no evidence that he knew Virgin or what sorts of financial arrangements were available for world class runners in 1980 or so. Malmo, who knew Virgin and was a world class runner at the time and who would likely know more about this sort of thing than anyone posting on this thread then comes along and says in less than politically correct terms that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Then someone else (maybe) calls malmo an ass yet also shows no indciation of knowing Virgin or of how money was done in the sport prior to, say 1985.

My original post was simply an invitation for the guy making the comment about Virgin and spring marathons to show whether he actually had any basis for what he seems to "know" or whether he'd just decided that was the case.

My next post gets into a more touchy area. Yes, I do know of some very big payments made during the "amateur" era, $100,000 being the top of the scale and happening in the mid to late 70s. I'm not going to be specific about it because if the guys who got that money, or even the ones who paid it, wanted people to know they could announce it.

You might recall that Shorter was almost suspended by the AAU prior to Montreal for testifying about the money amateurs were making and asying, "We're all professionals."

no dog in this fight, but wrote:

How much did Virgin get to run Boston in 1981. Was he paid an appearance fee? I'd be curious, real curious with Seko and Rodgers there if he got much at all. Just asking.

Boston was a hold-out on appearance fees and prize money until 1986. That doesn't mean that athletes lacked financial incentives for running the race, however.

Avocado's Number wrote:

I'm pretty sure that, for the '78 NYC marathon, BR was reported to have received 10k to "appear" (or whatever they chose to call his duties) and another 10k for the win. I don't know about '79. But things were changing rapidly. According to Sandrock, BR said that he made about 600k from endorsements, races, and clinics in 1983 -- well after his peak as an athlete. I doubt that any American distance runners these days make anywhere close to what BR and Shorter made, on an inflation-adjusted basis, in the "amateur" era before over-the-counter prize money and appearance fees. And I would guess that Virgin (either directly or through his corporation, Front Runner Inc.) did very well, too. He certainly knew how to market himself.

Would you cite your references A.N?

In 1978 no one other than insiders knew what the appearance fees, and bonus (prize) structures were. In fact, the number of races with appearance budgets really didn't start taking off until 1979-80, even so, it was primarily an East coast thing. By 1980-81 the floodgates were open. The entire TAC "Trust" concept was pretty much of a sham. The monies that were identified into those trusts was probably not even 1/100 of the total prize/appearance money pool.

Craig had quite a bit to say in great detail about both of his World X-C wins and also discussed the USA team spirit in his day and what he'd like to see as far as a strong USA team today in a lengthy interview I conducted a ew months ago at http://www.garycohenrunning.com/Interviews/Virgin.aspx

Truth Sayer wrote:

Nothing we didn't already know.

No reason why we can't challenge for the podium spot with these guys in the mix:

Rupp

Ritz

Solinsky

Tegenkamp

Webb

We can challenge for a team medal only if each one of these guys all happen to have a career PR day on the same day. Of course this is about as likely as all of the Kenyan or Ethiopian team having a career day on the same day. In which case, they still kick the US's ass.