Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 12/12

Goal Race: Spring Marathon

Goal time: 2:56

Still not sure what to run in April/May.

I am thinking about Rotterdam or Vienna.

Any advice or alternative ideas? I can pretty much travel anywhere so that is not a constraint.

I am also thinking about jumping into a marathon in January and running it as either 10 easy + 10 MP or perhaps just run half of it all-out. I haven't raced a HM in a long time so i would like to know where i am fitness-wise.

M: 7.5 @ 8:03

T: 5 @ 8:05 / 10 @ 7:41 (out in 8:00 and back in 7:23)

W: 7.5 @ 8:24

R: 4 @ 8:11 / 7 @ 8:00

F: 3.5 @ 8:00 / 6 @ 8:24 hilly

S: 5 @ 8:03 hilly and windy

S: day off

Week: 55.5 miles on 6 days in 9 runs

Took Sunday off as a preventative measure. I haven't had a day off in 27 days and muscles started to feel sore.

Pablo,

Congats on the great half marathon, and thanks for posting your training here - it's helpful for those of us that have aspirations to improve, and want to learn all we can.

I have a quick question on you easy pace, if you don't mind.

Obviously you're still recovering, but I think the 7:10-7:20 is fairly typical?

My question is, what are your thoughts about the "right" pace? Specifically, based on your half, Daniels or McMillan would have you running them a bit faster (Daniels around 6:38, and McMillan's easy: 6:07-6:37, long: 6:07-7:07, recovery: 7:07-7:17).

I'm similar to you, running most of my regular (non-workout) days at the slow end of the McMillan's "long run", or faster end of "recovery". I wonder if I'm missing some potential fitness gains by going as slow as I am. "Easy" is a very subjective term, and difficult for a relative newbie who deals better with precise instructions (like Daniels' or McMillan's formulas).

I know that easy days must be easy enough to recover for the main workouts, but beyond that, do you have any thoughts or experience trying faster paces?

I've been in the 60's mpw for the last 6 months, and am looking to bump into the 70's this winter. All this is new territory, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Sorry, McMillan's recovery zone should be 7:07-7:37, not 7:07-7:17.

CTA - I've never done Rotterdam or Vienna, but a couple of people I know have done the former and rate it as a course for a quick time. That being said, I think the consensus is that the crowd support is significantly less enthusiastic/dense than you see at London, Berlin or New York.

Week 1 of return to training for me. Did 2 x 2M + 2 x 3M @ ~7:30m/m on Mon, Wed, Fri + Sun with 45 mins bike on Tue, Thu + Sat. It's been an absolute treat to just be able to put the trainers on and do a couple of miles. Damn! What a gift it is to be able to run at all.

Ummm....a bit too keen with the return key on the last post.

Goal marathon - London (April 2011)

Goal time - I don't have a goal time. Goal times mess with my head. I did 2:36:XX last time round.

Goal person to emulate - Pablo (I aspire to that consistency and high miles!)

Monday - 4 easy / (felt shit all day) 10 easy

Tuesday - 4 easy / track: 3x(2000/900) with long warm up and down

Wednesday - 4 easy / no evening run because had to work late

Thursday - 4 easy / 10 steady

Friday - 6 easy

Saturday - 4 easy warm-up, 12x400m hill, 4 easy warm down

Sunday - (pretty hung-over) 2 hours and 9 minutes, finishing strong.

I guess I did high 70s this week.

This is the fourth consecutive week of good training for me after months of mono and other illness, so I am feeling very pleased.

Goal Race: Arizona Marathon (1/16)

Goal Time: 2:35

M: 6 easy AM 8 easy PM

T: 8 easy AM

W: 6 easy AM 12 PM 10xmile w/ 1 min recovery (5:30-5:40)

T: 6 easy AM 8 easy PM

F: 6 easy AM 8 moderate PM

S: 10 recovery

S: 4 easy

82 miles for the week. No long run, one very good workout on Wednesday. Got me pretty tired for the rest of the week, I was hoping to go long today but would rather recover. I have a race next week and want to do well, I'll get a long run in next Sunday.

CTA,

I've done Rotterdam (2005). It is very fast and flat and well-organised and usually pretty good weather too. The crowds are pretty good and from what I've heard, on a par with Berlin, but nothing like London or NYC.

Don't know too much about Vienna actually.

Goal Race: Boston

Goal Time: sub-2:33

M- off (studying/writing)

Tu- off (studying)

W- off (finals are over)

Th- 8 (6:55)

F- 10 (7:15)

Sa- 8 (7:10)

Su- 5.5 (7:53)

Tot- 31.5mi

I am one semester closer to finishing my PhD coursework, whohooo. Of course right after finals finished up the weather turned to crap. Saturday was 35deg, pouring rain, and gale force winds and then on Sunday it was about 15deg, snowing with 30-40mph wind gusts.

I ran Rotterdam this year but DNFed at 28K (planned) as i was recovering from an accident and was not in shape. I already paid for the trip so i figured i would just have fun (which i did). Indeed, the course is flat (except for two long bridge crossings). Crowds are only ok, definitely not as good as Berlin. My incentive to go back would be that i have unfinished business there and i am now somewhat familiar with the course. (On the other hand, Rotterdam is a very dull town to spend another weekend there.) Vienna sounds appealing as it is also in April but i don't know if the course is fast. Any other ideas for April/May?

CTA - Paris perhaps? I ran the first 25k last spring, but to be perfectly honest, I thought it was too undulating to be classed as a quick marathon, despite the fact that talented East African's have run 2:05 on this course. Nevertheless, it's well organised and has potential to yield a reasonably fast time. Paris is brilliant for a few days away as long as you leave any suggestion of sound fiscal policy at home ;-)

marmite: great to see you back here! Hope you stick around, stay healthy, and start posting again those insane weeks we are used to seeing. Paris is already closed -- and i am not really disappointed as Paris seemed like a logistical headache for me.

I noticed that you mentioned last week that you are considering Frankfurt for the fall. Sell me on that please, if you can, because i was going to go with Berlin but i prefer an October/November race rather than September.

Goal Race: Rocket City

Goal Time: 2:30

I ended up running 2:27:08 for 3rd overall. The temperature was perfect at 45ish, but there were 10 mile an hour winds, which made it tough on some parts. Individual miles were:

1: 5:34; freaked out, so slammed on the brakes

2: 5:48

3: 5:31

4: 5:48

5: 5:35; Gu

6: 5:46

7: 5:30; I was in a pack with three other guys and I left them here

8: 5:40

9: 5:34; there was a guy falling off the pack about 20-30s ahead of me, so I gradually reeled him in and passed him in this mile

10: 5:39; Gu

11: 5:35; I caught another this guy mile, which moved me into 8th. He would radomly surge really hard, then slow down and go again. I just let him do this because I knew he would pay for it later

12: 5:44

13: 5:38; his mile. The pack I was chasing the last few miles was only about 5s ahead of me on this mile. I was running alone on a 5 mile straight road with a strong headwind, so I decided it'd save me energy to do a 400m surge and catch up so I could draft.

Half: 1:13:58

14: 5:42; Gu

15: 5:42

16: 5:34; broke off the pack with two other guys

17: 5:47

18: 5:27; one of the guys I was running with started picking it up, and I felt good, so I decided to go with him. The Kenyan running with us would throw in some random hard surges, so I knew it was a matter of time before he was done. My old Kenyan roomate would always call this "the last kicks of a dying horse."

19: 5:37; Gu

20: 5:40

21: 5:31; left the two guys I was running with. I was scared to do this at first but I was feeling really good.

22: 5:30; Gu

23: 5:32; caught a guy who was hitting the wall and earlier on, I saw one of the guys who was way ahead of me sitting on the curb. I was pumped because I was now 4th and after passing the other guy, I was now in 3rd

24: 5:29; was feeling good and wanted to break one of the guys behind me. He won the race last year, so I was scared he could run me down if he stayed close.

25: 5:34

26: 5:32

.2: 1:09

Man, I was happy with this race. I had trouble finding the pace early on because I didn't want to burn off my carbohydrates. I was nervous leaving the guy I was planning on hitting the half with at 1:14:30 six miles in but I just felt great. Anytime I would run sub 5:40 forty a mile, I would get scared and really try to slow it down. At 18 miles, I started getting a little foggy brained but my legs still felt really good. I wanted to move at 20 miles but I was terrified of hitting the wall, so I tried to stay patient and at 22, I wanted to move hard again, but I was way ahead of pace and didn't want to jeopardize anything. Once I hit 24, I knew I was good to go and just enjoyed the experience the last two miles. I completely died in my 10 miler this summer and after my half a couple of months ago, I had to lay down, so I mentally prepared for extreme pain and ugliness but it never came.

What really impressed me was the guy who got 2nd was with me at the half and he ran 2:24:50. He was only 13s behind the winner but I wish he would have won because he was a cool guy while the winner was telling everyone before the race he knew he was going to win and was going to run 2:17. After the race, he collapsed on the ground while the guy who was 2nd ran a 5:02 last mile.

I'm really glad this is done so I can chill out for a bit and go for another one next fall. During my Turkey Trot last year, I ran 27:41 for 5 miles all-out, so I'm really happy with the improvement I've had.

blaznbison24 - Congratulations!! Very nice race. It sure sounds like your "fear" was very prudent fear because you ended up finishing perfectly! This has to be one of the most consistent marathon splits-wise I've seen. I know you bounced around a little bit in the first miles but to have your slowest split of 5:48 and fastest of 5:27 is phenomenal. 21 second spread is awesome! Again - nice race. It's great to read about you racing smart! I'm guessing this is a PR. If so - how big of a PR was it?

Holy moly, Bison!!!!

Great race. You were flying the last 5 miles. If my math is correct you ran 27:38 for the last 5mi -- damn impressive considering you beat your Turkey trot time from last year. Watching your fitness and training escalate at an exponential rate throughout the past half-year has been great and I am very happy that you got the result you deserved -- a rare occurrence in the marathon. Plus, this will serve as a great example/inspiration for me as I try to regain my former fitness this winter for Boston.

Enjoy your time off and the euphoria of a new PR!

blaznbison24 - Hello! Truly awesome race. Did not seem like anything phased you and raced extremely smart. Congratulations man, you are a BAMF.

From you're report, I wish that 2nd place guy would have won too!

Some Croked up Brit - Good to see you are starting to string together some good back-to-back weeks after a few set backs. Keep it up.

Goal Races: Spring 5k/10/15k

Goal Times: sub 15:30, sub 33, 50:30ish

Mo - Vegas, 8 easy AM

Tu - Vegas, 10.5 easy PM

We - 12PM easy (6:50s)

Th - 10AM easy with 6 by 90s hills / 7.5PM easy (7:12s)

Fr - 10AM easy (7:12s) / 7.5PM easy (7:15s)

Sa - 4AM easy / 9PM (5k 16:23 bullshit)

Su - 13PM easy (7:11s)

Total Mileage - 91.5

I ran a 5k here that is normally a very good race. They had to change up the course last minute because of construction. The course was way long! So annoying as I felt like I had a good race with a solid effort.

The first mile was taken out ridiculously fast and everyone got sucked in. Wanna guess what my first mile was? ... 5:36! That's my effin tempo pace. It was good mentally for me tho bc as soon as I saw that first mile, I threw time out the window and started racing. At the first mile I was probably 10th and then just started picking people off. Finished 2nd overall and was racing hard the last mile with two UNF collegiate runners. Beat both of them. I know they are in sub 16min shape and so am I.

Oh well, solid effort and second week at 90+ miles. Also, I have never run that many miles before a race 17.5 thursday, 17.5 friday, 4 miles the morning of the race. I am feeling strong.

blaznbison - Damn dude...pure greatness! I don't see anywhere in that race where you could've/should've done anything different. You ran smart, and that's often very difficult to do in a marathon. I'm gonna have to take notes from your RR for my next marathon. I do have a question though, why the gel at 22 when you just had one at 19? I'm not questioning you, because it obviously worked...just curious. Either way, enjoy some well deserved down time and enjoy the holidays!

Progress - 7:10-7:20 pace is my typical pace for your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, easy runs. It wasn't always that way though, in high school and college, I never ran anything over 7:00 pace, but I was also only doing 30-50 mpw. Now, the only time I see a 6:xx average paced run are long runs or workouts....but hardly ever on easy runs. To be honest, I don't pay attention at all to the Daniels, McMillan, or other tables to dictate my paces. They're nice to look at and use as a go-by...but they seem too aggressive for me. Mostly, I run by feel...and I don't make a distinction between easy and recovery runs like they do as well. I see them as one in the same...if you're running easy, you're probably recovering. And that pace can have a WIDE range (for me, anywhere from 7:00 - 8:00 pace). In my experience, running faster (say 6:40's) on a daily basis is manageable, but leaves me feeling drained after an extended period of time. Slowing down my runs has made me a more consistent runner, meaning I'm able to string together weeks, months, even years...of training. And that has ultimately been a huge part of my improvements over the last few months. Consistency is the key, I don't think anyone can argue against that. Whatever it takes for you to become a consistent runner, that's what works.

Basically, I took a long time to say that...yes....I run by feel most every single day...and yes, they are typically much slower than others around me in races. Everyone is different, so those tables cannot be used effectively by everyone. Long runs are the only runs I do on a regular basis where I try to keep the pace honest (at least under 7:00 pace, usually ending closer to 6:00 pace). Hope something in that jumbled mess answered your question.

marmite - I know the feeling well my friend. You don't realize how much you take running for granted until you can't do it. It truly is a blessing to be able to run like we do, regardless of pace. Glad to see you out there again.

Coked up Brit - Solid week man, running after battling mono for a while is no joke. I had a buddy go through that and it really took him a while to bounce back. P.S., I love your comment about goal times...sometimes it's better to go out there and see what happens.

CTA - I don't know a damn thing about European marathons, but I've heard great things about Rome. I think it's in mid-March.

Abu - We're gonna have to start calling you Dr. Abu soon! Congrats on going through the PhD coursework...my brain was toast after going through undergrad.

NoleRunner - Dude, 90 miles the week after a half is pretty good...especially considering you didn't have a true long run. Great 5k though, I'm thinking your 15:30 goal for the spring may be a little soft...you may hit that at Matanzas! Good to hear you're feeling strong.

Blaznbison (I want to bold the name, but I'm too technologically illiterate to know how to do that) is one serious BAMF! (He knows this is true.)

Seriously man - that was a great race and great race report. You must have been way underestimating your fitness. I still can't get my head round your 5.29 24th mile or whatever it was!

Marmite (again I'm wanting to bold your name) you're right about running being a gift and I guess we should be very grateful that we currently have it! Really, we're very fortunate compared to much of humanity (in much of history too) to be able to enjoy this simple thing as a hobby. I should remember that next time I'm lacing them up and it's pissing down with rain here!

Nolerunner (don't understand how you managed to run so many miles without doing a long run - I guess that's math for you... Good job,)

Awesome race Scott! Sounds like you had a very enjoyable marathon experience!

Goal Race: Boston

Goal Time: 2:40

Monday - Off. Sick

Tuesday - 6 real easy. Still sick

Wednesday - AM: 4.6 easy. PM - 8 easy, 8x100m strides

Thursday - AM: 4.6 easy. PM - 8 easy (7:34 pace), 8x100m strides

Friday - AM: 4.6 easy. PM - 2 mile w/u, 8x100m strides, 8x400 with 60 seconds rest in 74, 72, 72, 70, 71 71 72, 69, 2 mile c/d

Saturday - AM: 6 real easy (8:20 pace). PM - 8 easy (8:05 pace), 8x100m strides

Sunday - 10 easy, 8x100m strides

Total: 68 miles

I've been feeling kind of run down all week...probably because I only took 1 day off after feeling a cold coming on last Sunday. I am happy I got in a decent amount of volume even with a day off and a short day on Tuesday. I felt pretty good Friday evening, but yesterday and today haven't been great, so I'm just going to keep things easy until I'm completely over this thing.