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    • TrackCoach
      • Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 2:08PM
      • TrackCoach
      • Who is the undisputed champ?

        ‘As right now’ I can provide an argument for 3 to 4 males being the greatest American high school cross country athlete ever. In fact, except for Reynolds in ’82, Reina in ’85, Kennedy in ’87, Goucher in ’93, Ritz in ’00 and Solinsky in ’02, I can give you an argument for who was truly the best in a given year. I am not talking about who won the meet, but all things being equal and under every scenario, I can think of, who was actually the best. If Lukas Verzbicas manages to pull a victory at next week’s FLNC, without a doubt he is best in 2010 and in my mind, he will be greatest American high school cross country athlete ever. Even if Lukas does not win FLNC, he will certainly be among the top 3, but if he wins, his place in history and in the 2010 season will be without debate as the greatest.
    • Cool?
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 2:44PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • Cool?
      • He only beat lutz by 5 seconds at nxn. Lutz seems to be put down as only a decent runner so if Lukas is only winning by that margin than why make the argument that he's the single greatest?
    • The Real UncleB
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 2:57PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • The Real UncleB
      • I think Pre was a pretty good high school cross country runner. His college performance was not bad either
    • TrackCoach
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:11PM - in reply to Cool?
      • TrackCoach
      • Cool? wrote:
        He only beat lutz by 5 seconds at nxn. Lutz seems to be put down as only a decent runner so if Lukas is only winning by that margin than why make the argument that he's the single greatest?
        Who said "Lutz seems to be put down as only a decent"

        Lutz is a fantastic runner, he won NXN last which was a stronger field upfront than Footlocker and this year's NXN field is also stronger than Footlocker, which is what makes Lukas even more legit.
    • ya......
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:14PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • ya......
      • Agreed, Lutz destroyed records all over texas and ran some crazy fast times (including beating Lowe's records) and he still couldn't hang with Verzbicas. He held is own, but there was no way he was going to beat him.
    • way back when
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:26PM - in reply to ya......
      • way back when
      • First, there is no argument as to who the best high school cross country runner ever - it is Lindgren. And Pre was nearly as good, although it is harder to measure his high school XC performances.

        If the original poster meant to refer to the 80's and later, I think he has a good point. I am not sure I would so easily dispense with Ritzenhein, though.
    • LooneyBin
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:33PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • LooneyBin
      • Lukas was holding back for Footlocker and only ran hard to win, if this would of been his last race (NXN) he would destroyed the field by 30 seconds...easy~!
    • TrackCoach
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:37PM - in reply to The Real UncleB
      • TrackCoach
      • The Real UncleB wrote:
        I think Pre was a pretty good high school cross country runner. His college performance was not bad either
        You absolutely correct about Pre; he definitely one of the best. Pre was very good his junior and incredible senior year, but he was unhead of his first 2 years, whereas Lukas was good from day one. I know track and XC are two differnt things, but remember Lukas ran a 14:18 5000 on an indoor track two years ago easily beating Solomon Haile who was the FLNC Champ; I think Lukas possibly could have won FLNC in '08.
    • TrackCoach
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:55PM - in reply to way back when
      • TrackCoach
      • way back when wrote:
        First, there is no argument as to who the best high school cross country runner ever - it is Lindgren. And Pre was nearly as good, although it is harder to measure his high school XC performances.

        If the original poster meant to refer to the 80's and later, I think he has a good point. I am not sure I would so easily dispense with Ritzenhein, though.
        Lindgren!

        This is where it gets difficult, I know Gerry was a great XC runner, but I think it was his senior year where he went nuts in XC and in track, but I don't know much about Gerry as a Junior.
    • Da Cracker
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:55PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • Da Cracker
      • Let's not forget Ritz won a bronze medal at World (Junior) Cross while in high school.

        Let's hope Verzbicas gives up the silly triathlon and runs US/World Cross this winter.
    • free beer
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 3:57PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • free beer
      • Well its kind of hard to judge the '60's and '70s runners that didn't run a national championship meet. There were American boys back then that won the World Cross Junior Race.

        Lindgren was the best high school distance runner ever period when you include cross country. He was a world class distance runner among the fastest in the world at age 16 and went on to win a ton of NCAA championships.

        Rueben Reina ran in one of the fastest Footlocker fields ever and set a long time course record but got beat by Chris Borsa a college freshman at the World Junior trials and finished about a 100th at the World Championships.

        Kennedy was third as a junior at Footlocker, or Kinney, and won as a senior but he had relatively weak competition. I wouldn't include him in any discussion about the greatest ever in high school cross country.

        Verzbicas definitely has shown early promise but I'm waiting for an all-time type of performance to put him in the same group as Pre, Lindgren, Virgin, and Ritzenhein.
    • giffypop17
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 4:00PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • giffypop17
      • TrackCoach wrote:
        You absolutely correct about Pre; he definitely one of the best. Pre was very good his junior and incredible senior year, but he was unhead of his first 2 years, whereas Lukas was good from day one.
        See, now you're throwing in new criteria that totally changes the game. If we look at longevity and how good they were as frosh/soph, then I'd argue that Jorge Torres has as strong a case as anyone, though he wasn't quite as dominant as a junior/senior.

        And that's where these whole conversations fall apart. It's really all about everyone's different opinions of what criteria should be used.
    • BetterCoach
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 4:51PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • BetterCoach
      • TrackCoach wrote:
        Lutz is a fantastic runner, he won NXN last which was a stronger field upfront than Footlocker and this year's NXN field is also stronger than Footlocker, which is what makes Lukas even more legit.
        NXN was garbage last year, garbage + Lukas V. this year, anyone is elite is at Footlocker.
    • Not Close Yet
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 4:58PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • Not Close Yet
      • Ritz is undisputed as king of highschool XC(2X Footlocker champ, World Jr. XC bronze), unless Lukas defends his Footlocker title and brings home a World Jr. medal.
    • Concerned Citizen
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 5:27PM - in reply to Not Close Yet
      • Concerned Citizen
      • That stupid Nike meet doesn't mean anything. It's just a post-season XC meet, like Golden West in track. Winning it is certainly cool, but Footlocker is the real deal.
    • TrackCoach
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 5:29PM - in reply to BetterCoach
      • TrackCoach
      • BetterCoach wrote:
        TrackCoach wrote:
        Lutz is a fantastic runner, he won NXN last which was a stronger field upfront than Footlocker and this year's NXN field is also stronger than Footlocker, which is what makes Lukas even more legit.
        NXN was garbage last year, garbage + Lukas V. this year, anyone is elite is at Footlocker.
        I am going to assume you're trolling, either that, or I will have to think you're crazy.
    • northeast insider
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 5:35PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • northeast insider
      • but 00,01,03 were the best hs years ever,
        ritz, Webb, Solinsky, Rupp, Lukas is NOT on their level
    • Tanya Skagle
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 6:09PM - in reply to TrackCoach
      • Tanya Skagle
      • LooneyBin wrote:
        ... if this would of been his last race (NXN) he would destroyed the field by 30 seconds.
        You left out an "of" between "would" and "destroyed."

        Da Cracker wrote:
        Let's not forget Ritz won a bronze medal at World (Junior) Cross while in high school.
        Eric Hulst and Thom Hunt went 1-2 (ahead of 5th place Alberto Salazar) in the 1976 World Junior XC. The competition from the Africans might not have been as tough then, but you can only race who shows up, and they did beat their contemporaries, which is as good as it gets. They were very good back then, as were Lindgren and Prefontaine before that.

        northeast insider wrote:
        ritz, Webb, Solinsky, Rupp, Lukas is NOT on their level
        Or is he? Was Withrow on the same level as Rupp? Was Fout on the same level as Fernandez, Derrick, Puskedra or Lowe?
    • Here is the way it is
      • RE: Lukas Verzbicas in Historical Context 12/6/2010 6:14PM - in reply to Tanya Skagle
      • Here is the way it is
      • Tanya Skagle wrote:
        LooneyBin wrote:
        ... if this would of been his last race (NXN) he would destroyed the field by 30 seconds.
        You left out an "of" between "would" and "destroyed."

        No, he left out a "have" between "would" and "destroyed." He also incorrectly replaced a "have" with an "of" between "would" and "been".