Salazar Interview, hard v. soft surfaces

Oregon4Life wrote:

Interesting. I've never thought about it this way. Is it generally understood that running on hard surfaces is going to have more impact on ankles/shins than it will on knees? Most of my injury problems have been knee-related but I've never definitively attributed it to either surface.

I've found the opposite...most of my ailments related to running are in my ankles or below. Running on soft surfaces seems to aggravate them more than the roads do.

I need a stable surface to run on, if I had easy access to soft surfaces with stable ground(such as golf courses), I'd probably run on those before the roads. But since my stable ground happens to be the road where I live, then road it is.

Therefore, all my morning miles are on roads.[/quote]

From your start point, you do realize how quickly you can be on the Hendricks Park soft trails, don't you? An EASY four or five up there is a nice way to start the day. Doesn't have to be very hilly if you think out the route.

I know somehow this is a stupid question, but I don't know why.

What is the difference between running on a soft surface with typical shoes and running on a hard surface with shoes with a little more softness?

I hear that using "soft" running shoes is a bad thing, but running on soft surfaces is a good thing. Why?

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Good questions, not stupid. Also, there's no evidence that trails or soft surfaces limit injuries. According to old thinking that excess motion causes injuries, one would think the motions created by non-uniform trail surfaces would lead to injuries. Of course, core-training fans think that imbalance exercises are a good thing. Barefooters think they've got it right because they eliminate imbalances produced by soft midsoles. Short striders think short strides, very likely on trails, reduce injuries. Short strides and roots and stuff on trails encourage forefoot landing, which could be a good thing. Except that this might lead to Achilles and calf issues.

So the bottom line is, if you think you've got running injuries figured out, you probably don't.

Oregon4Life wrote:

Interesting. I've never thought about it this way. Is it generally understood that running on hard surfaces is going to have more impact on ankles/shins than it will on knees? Most of my injury problems have been knee-related but I've never definitively attributed it to either surface.

pablo wrote:

I've found the opposite...most of my ailments related to running are in my ankles or below. Running on soft surfaces seems to aggravate them more than the roads do.

I need a stable surface to run on, if I had easy access to soft surfaces with stable ground(such as golf courses), I'd probably run on those before the roads. But since my stable ground happens to be the road where I live, then road it is.

In my experience, this is different for different people. When I say I have knee trouble, I mean my knee cap tends to track crooked and the lower leg kind of twists out. For this, having a smooth predictable footstrike is key to preventing flareups.

Others who have knee trouble may have knees that track straight, but lack cartilage or whatever (especially older runners), so the hard shock of running on roads hurts them.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

golf courses are phenomenal.

This discussion has reminded me to run on my local golf course. I think its a 6500 meter 18 hole course, so it shouldn't get that boring doing loops on there.

I only do my mileage on concrete, I like to see who has the most guts.

Of course we should think about variations of individual's knees for HRE but we also have to consider the variations in the extreme ends of runner's bodies: feet and heads.

Some feet adapt well to running on rocks, others cannot. Some feet land softly on even hard surfaces. So consider variations in feet. Ridged feet aren't good on rocks but good on squishy ground. Flexible feet are the reverse.

Now for heads. Some people like running in the woods. Some people hate the roads. A run can be unpleasant in the beautiful woods when serious concentration is necessary to keep from tripping or turning an ankle. Automobile traffic, death at your elbow, can be unpleasant on secure footing.

So people differ in how those surfaces make them happy or annoyed.

Training is more efficacious is happy instead of annoyed.

(Yes, some runners have squishy or flexible heads too.)

Tom

pablo wrote:

I've found the opposite...most of my ailments related to running are in my ankles or below. Running on soft surfaces seems to aggravate them more than the roads do.

This is also my experience. My injuries have all been soft-tissue, and feet/ankles (plantar fascitis, posterior tibial tendonitis, achilles tendonitis). Soft surfaces definitely aggravate them, to the point that when I was returning from my PF, I had to actively avoid soft surfaces and run only on asphalt and concrete.

Running on hard surfaces increases bone strength and bone density, thus decreasing injuries. That being said, however, I do love the feeling of running barefoot on grass.

Every city has soft surfaces. It's just harder to find in some cities. I live in NYC and that's pretty much the situation here. As amazing as Central park is, it is quite disturbing how much of it is paved over. And the park administrators seems to be doing everything in their power to prevent people from running on any of "their" grass surfaces. The dirt surfaces are too hard and poorly cared. I have spoken with Mary Wittenberg at NYRR about runner friendly trails being built in central park. Of course she was disinterested. All the NYRR club is interested in, is taking your money at overpriced races, and not really serving the NYC running community. Interestingly Prospect Park in Brooklyn, which is less than half the size of Central Park, has more soft running surfaces. Van Cortland Park in the Bronx used to be good, but lately the paving over and cordonong off mindset seem to be taking over. In NYC, one has to be creative and resourceful to get onto the softer surfaces, and prepared to be bored as one does one's run in small circles.

My friend works for Nike and routinely see's Webb, Ritz, and the like doing workouts and continuous runs around the grass soccer fields at the Nike campus. I'm guessing this is what Salazar meant by sacrifice.

Training on unpaved uneven surfaces doesn't seem to have slowed down the Ethiopians and Kenyans or made them more injury prone.

Then you need to increase your mileage!

Kidding, yeah, it may not be possible, to drive and then run.

What about the graveyard loop?

So I live in LA, should I only run in the sand?

Ask Mr. Salazar where he often has his athletes run. Hint: many loops for tempos.

Aca Demic wrote:

I know somehow this is a stupid question, but I don't know why.

What is the difference between running on a soft surface with typical shoes and running on a hard surface with shoes with a little more softness?

I hear that using "soft" running shoes is a bad thing, but running on soft surfaces is a good thing. Why?

It's not a stupid question at all. I've asked it before myself. It only makes sense that, if you are forced to run on the roads, you carry your soft surface along with you in the form of more cushioned shoes.

My friend works for Nike and routinely see's Webb, Ritz, and the like doing workouts and continuous runs around the grass soccer fields at the Nike campus. I'm guessing this is what Salazar meant by sacrifice

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Right. And Adam Goucher just can't stop getting injured. And Webb had a calcaneal stress fracture this spring. And Ritz gets one foot stress reaction after another. So it seems clear that running 90+ percent of your mileage on perfect, manicured Nike grass is a surefire way to ... uh, to not prevent injuries.

giffypop17 wrote:

Running on roads beats the crap out of my ankles and shins, etc.

Why? How does that happen, and why would you let it happen?

giffypop17 wrote:

Running on roads beats the crap out of my ankles and shins, etc.

Why? How does that happen, and why would you let it happen?

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Running on roads, tracks etc provides smooth, stable surface for feet, ankles, and everything above. Running on uneven surface, whether grass or trails, forces feet-ankles etc to work harder to maintain stability against the rotational forces. This could easily lead to increased crap-beating.