Perfect example of good form and better form

Forgot the link

http://www.letsrun.com/2004/gateriver/imagepages/image5.htm

as dirt wrote:

Note her perfect push for maximum flight with little effort. (about 45 degrees) Upper body weight is perfectly placed to be pushed forward. (slightly back because of slight downhill)

Learn from her.

End running form lesson 1.

We sure are going to learn anything from YOU. That's NOT 45 degrees, nor should it ever be!

The angle is the relation of the hip and the ground. With the hip slightly forward, it makes it 45 degrees. We all know the to get maximum distance you need to push at 45.

or maybe i dont know physics that well.

(on a side note, there is a lot to be gained in swimming from a differect angle off the blocks.)

as dirt wrote:

The angle is the relation of the hip and the ground. With the hip slightly forward, it makes it 45 degrees. We all know the to get maximum distance you need to push at 45.

or maybe i dont know physics that well.

The goal of running isn't maximun trajectory, it's maximum efficiency. Regardless, there is no 45 degree angle to be measured anyway. Try again.

And maximum efficiency is the sum of ALL the movements in the running gait and how they are effected by the laws of physics.

We're off topic here. However you want to state it. Colleen is a BETTER runner with BETTER form than Meb. This is a great example of it.

If you want to argue that point please do so. If not, shut up and start another Alan Webb thread that turns into a Flagpole Willy bash fest.

How is it possible to tell all of this from a snapshot? Dont you need moving video or a slideshow to tell definitively?

How do you tell good technique from bad? More importantly how do you improve your technique? Help others improve their technique?

It is very hard to tell from just a snap shot. It has to be taken at the right time. This pic shows them on a straight without and corners and (this part I will assume) without much change in pace. There was a thread about heel strikers a while back that took different pics from the thon trials and tried to determine that "heel strikers rule". the pics were all from different times and phases of the race.

This pic shows a great deal about thier respective strides because of the position that they are both in. The only thing that might skew this would be if Meb is slowing down and shortening his stride or if Colleen is sprinting or accelerating quite a bit. I have had the chance to race next to Colleen on a few occasions and have watched her race on a few more so I can tell you that her form is impecable.

So there is a chance that Meb's form is not as bad as I think it is but I have seen enough pics to belive that he needs some work. A snap shot can tell a lot.

As far as the work that you need to do, I wish that I could tell you over the internet but the truth is that it must be learned on your own or one on one with a coach.

The body will always try to move in the most energy effecient way possible. Remove the interfeariance and you will get that movement. Best no thought process way to do that is to run without shoes. But please ease into any barefoot work as I would hate to hear that you gave yourself plantar faciatias because you did a tempo run without shoes. Try this; Go to the track and run 200meters at regular training speed then 200meters slow jog. Repeat about 6-8 times.

i can dig alot of what you are saying, while some of it seems to leave out factors that simply can not be measured.

i like meb's hand/finger positioning best, his thumb pops up much like tergats. colleen would be second, and abdi a very distant third. his mechanics are horrid, but his body structure is the best to work with. meb's calves are so damn big, i think if he did some serious barefoot training they'd drop a couple ounces and that'd be favorable for him. the fact that he wears shoes while racing is bad enough, but socks too! what's with the shoe and sock combo, are people trying to completely numb the natural feeling capability of the foot?

coleen's form does look a bit cleaner, but i think meb's american 10k record is a greater accomplishment than what coleen has done, and you are missing that. the fact that coleen's form is cleaner than PaulaR's doesn't mean she is a better runner, and it may just be Paula has better form amongst the two, as awkward as it looks. i say this to tie in the point about a factor that simply can't be measured, and that is the distribution of body mass. it's not always equally symetrical, in fact it never is if you measure at a critical level like grams, so we can't always say with confidence who is more efficient amongst a group of runners, only what type of form is most efficient amongst a large population.

Next you'll tell us that Paula would run faster if she stopped the head-boppin'...

You cannot tell, by looking, who is the most oxygen-economical runner out there. And that's what counts. Not who looks the neatest with (what was it?) a 45 deg angle on the dangle...

I agree, you can tell little from a single picture. One thing that noone has mentioned is the fact that most biophysicists now agree that sprint biomechanics can be translated to the distance events. The toe up position on both the athletes in this photo is atrocious. Can analysis be doen on this single photo? I think not. Energy conservation in the marathon is a consideration and form will differ vastly from that exhibited in a 10km and certainly in a 5km.

That's a great photo in showing effective downhill running technique - no signs of leaning back to counter pull of hill.

ray wrote:

One thing that noone has mentioned is the fact that most biophysicists now agree that sprint biomechanics can be translated to the distance events.

Funniest made-up quote of the year! Did you learn that at Dyestat?

ray wrote:

One thing that noone has mentioned is the fact that most biophysicists now agree that sprint biomechanics can be translated to the distance events.

i don't think anyone doubts that biomechanics are important, its just that in distance races they may be less a factor than other things (such as lactate processing, oxygen uptake, etc.)

but the original post relies on an argument AFTER the fact.

they showed an example of form, then went back and "proved" that the runner with better form was the more impressive runner on the world scene.

as has been pointed out, if someone put photos paula or geb next to colleen- we'd all be laughing.

Running tall.

LOL, I missed it where is the "quote" that I wrote????

Have you been to any elite distance summits in the past 5 years?

Didn't think so.

ray wrote:

Have you been to any elite distance summits in the past 5 years?

Didn't think so.

Only on LetsRun

Of course Meb runs differently. His body weight distribution isn't the same. His hips are not as wide relative to his torso. His lower to upper leg ratio is probably not the same. Hell maybe his feet are just bigger.

These and a hundred other anatomical variables go into making the form that is most efficient for him.

The man has efficient running form and it put him on the US Olympic team. Now some nobody on the internet thinks he's going to "correct" him from a photo. And someone else who went to an "elite distance summit" (zowie!) thinks we all just need to run like sprinters.

Be sure to let Gebresellassie, Tergat, and Bekele in on that one.

LetsRun, I love ya.

i think ray is touching on something here though averagejoe. sprinters are extremely efficient, and they have proven they are supreme when it comes to peak energy transmission. we've seen deena transform to more of a sprinters gait, and her times have come down a bit. i saw her at mt. sac and it almost looked awkward, but it sure as hell worked.

if it's true that a sprinting form is superior, we will be seeing, fairly soon, a crop of distance runners moving like michael johnson. i think it's possible too, he was extremely efficient.

What does this say for the Pose method?

jmw wrote:

i think ray is touching on something here though averagejoe. sprinters are extremely efficient, and they have proven they are supreme when it comes to peak energy transmission. we've seen deena transform to more of a sprinters gait, and her times have come down a bit. i saw her at mt. sac and it almost looked awkward, but it sure as hell worked.

if it's true that a sprinting form is superior, we will be seeing, fairly soon, a crop of distance runners moving like michael johnson. i think it's possible too, he was extremely efficient.

again, you guys are arguing AFTER the fact. everyone siad michael johnson had bad form UNTIL he started blowing the doors off people. then suddenly, every ex. physiologist in the country come out with an analysis saying MJ is the most efficient runner.

remember when people talked about donovan bailey, having too high a knee lift; then he wins medals, and its BECAUSE of the knee lift!

efficiency is important, but it may not be the most important thing. and since we can't even agree on what efficiency actually is, without referencing people who run fast, than its more speculation than it is science (physics)