I know that both a great coaches, but who do you think is better?
I know that both a great coaches, but who do you think is better?
From what I've read of Bowerman/Dellinger's book and the articles, etc about Arkansas, McDonell and Dellinger are pretty close in training philosophy: Moderate mileage, high intensity, taking easy days when you need them.
Almost Twice wrote:
I know that both a great coaches, but who do you think is better?
Johnny Mac certainly has an advantage. He's still around to coach.
I don't think Bowerman/Dellinger has 39 nat'l championship banners hanging in their stadium.
This is a tough question. I would have to go with McDonnell. Simply on the fact that he is most current in my mind. I like Bowerman's philosophy and his inventiveness. Bowerman probably will have a more lasting impact on Distance running than Mcdonnell, but I still will go with McDonnell.
Bowerman was a very good coach that became bigger than life because of Nike. Nike has a way of turning good into great. If you live in Michigan you think that Schembechler was a great football coach (he was good). If you live in Oregon you think that Bowerman was a great coach (he was good). Since Nike was created by Phil Knight and Bill Bowerman they have the power to control everyones perception. Dellinger wouldn't even call Bowerman a great coach.
BJ YEW wrote:
Bowerman was a very good coach that became bigger than life because of Nike. Nike has a way of turning good into great.
I'd agree. When I was in school I read everything there was about running, yet I never heard about Bowerman until I moved to Oregon. The Nike PR machine really did blur fact and fiction. To this day, as far as I could tell, he was just another coach - a damn good one - but hardly the charismatic legend that's been forced-fed to the masses.
Bowerman, peace be with him, in my opinion, should be ranked in the top 10 of the worlds best coaches.
Forget about what Nike did to glorify him! He had more
sub 4 minute milers in his historic stable long before
Nike was ever formed, then any other coach before or since. In fact he was the foundation of Nike, Pre was the pillar and Knight was the salesman.
The shoes you run in, the track you run on and the training
methods you use, were largely a result of Bowerman's study,
inventiveness, and contacts with other world reknowned coaches.
You can say Bowerman, Lydiard, Cerutty and Stampf in one sentence; but at this time theres no room there for any other US coach.
There are many great coaches in American history; from Villanova, Kansas, Stanford, Florida, Arkansas etc. But Bowerman
stands at the home stretch of Hayward Field Heaven, looking
down, pleased, at what the rest have done and will do!
very well put.
track and field news and runners world wrote great stuff about bowerman and oregon in the 60's. i wish i could scan the stuff i have, i it would support your comments strongly.
the nike pr machine is just that.
bowerman was all about innovation, results, and most importantly, teaching.
Need any more proof, it's in the post above?
Dellinger and Elliot had both produced more sub 4:00 milers than Bowerman. More Nike mantra - Pre was an adidias runner who got on the Nike train late. The wild claim from the bleating sheep that the shoes and training methods were the result of Bowerman's inventiveness is wild embellishment of the highest order.
I knew Bowerman and liked him a lot. Somehow I get the feeling he'd distance himself from these Scientology-like exaggerations.
Et tu, Walt?
Malmo
No Nike mantra here. And Dellinger's sub four men were a result of the Bowerman system; Bowerman continued on as consultant long after he retired. As for Pre...he became a part of Nike as soon as the co became viable and he'd graduated from U. And no scientology like exaggerations either just the facts:
4 NCAA Championships. 33 individual NCAA and AAU titles.
11 U.S. Olympic team members. 10 sub 4 minute milers.
Coach Sam Bell; "No man has contributed as much to track and field in the U.S. as Bowerman.
Some of his athletes: Jim Grelle 3:55/ Wade Bell, Kenny Moore, Dellinger, Knight, Steve Savage, Pat Tyson, Pre.
He did the earliest research in rubber asphalt surfaces,
and devised elastic cloth tops for hurdles so runners could work closely over the barriers without bruisings. He was a skilled cobbler. He did prototype work on training and racing shoes for manufacturors long before Nike. He developed a special shock absorbing "waffle" shoe which revolutionized the industry! You use tights when its cold?
In the fifties B found that long underwear, like a wet suit, keeps a runner warmer in the Oregon rain then heavy sweats, so he outfitted his runners in long white drawers; they had to be died green soon for obvious reasons.
These, Malmo, are not exaggerations, just the plain facts.
um, i'm pretty sure malmo already knows the facts.
Waffles "revolutionized" the industry? He invented the idea of wearing longjohns? I thought I had the patent to that? I do like that wheel thingy invention of his. The mousetrap too! Oh boy, you do exaggerate!
You do a disservice to Dellinger by conveniently ignoring HIS superior record.
I'm sure Bowerman is shaking his head as we speak.
It's an "apples/oranges" question. They coached in different eras at different schools with different athletic philosophies. If you're usuing NCAA championships as a measure, McDonnell wins hands down. But if you ran a dual meet with a randomly selected Bowerman team vs. a randomly selected McDonnell team, I think I'd bet on Bowerman.
I'd also say that McDonnell is a much more avid recruiter than Bowerman.
I always thought that one of Bowerman's skills was the ability to take slightly better than average high school runners and make them national or world class athletes, Kenny Moore perhaps being the ultimate example.
I also think that Bowerman's influence goes beyond the world of collegiate running, i.e. the popularization of jogging, publicizing his methods for something like mass consumption, stealing Malmo's patent on running in long underwear (actually, I thought I had that one.)
Generally, if I could transcend time and choose either coach, I'd choose MacDonnell if I wanted to win a lot of NCAA championships and Bowerman if I was a 4:20ish high school miler hoping to go sub-4:00.
great post rich.
you elequently said what i hoped to convey.
anyone who would piss on derderian's leg would be interesting to have for a coach.
While reading this interesting thread, I have been wondering what the hell value an NCAA Championship has in the International world of Track and Field. In addition, I still do not know what McDonnell has done.
Wow Orville. I just don't know hwere to start....
[quote]HRE wrote:
I always thought that one of Bowerman's skills was the ability to take slightly better than average high school runners and make them national or world class athletes, Kenny Moore perhaps being the ultimate example.
quote]
while daniel lincoln has not achieved the level of succes that kenny moore did (5th in the olympics, i think) dan was a walk-on who had run something like 9:30 for two miles in high school, that is quite a ways to 8:26ish and 28:20
the same can be said for alistair cragg, while mac had more to work with at the start with cragg than with lincoln, his pr's then compared to his pr's now are startiling
Lincoln has become a very fine runner. A very good coaching job!
Moore had 14th and 4th places in Olympic Marathons.
It is hard to compare times from different eras. Training and knowledge improves. Winning and placing used to be the main goal but now the stress is placed on times. In addition, tracks have improved tremendously. Even marathons have improved. When I first ran Boston there were no water stations and no times given if one was not with the leaders.