One could argue that with Floyd Landis admitting to doping, that Lance should be stripped of his titles while Floyd was a teammate.
In our sport, individuals on a relay can lose their medals if a team member tests positive. Once again, one can argue that the Tour de France is a team event and thus Floyd's drug use helped Lance win the Tour.
Just some thoughts, but what's fair in our sport is not fair in others.
Innocent until 'proven' guilty.
I could accuse you of being a gay pedophile.
No evidence, nothing, just my word against yours.
Are you ok with that?
You're not understanding what the OP is saying. Say that you're on the US 4 X 4 team and your teammate tests positive after the fact. Guess what? you lose your medal for the relay that you were on with him. The OP is saying that in cycling it's arguable that Lance couldn't have won at least a tour or two without the help of a teammate like Floyd, who has not admitted to using drugs during his career.
Fat Basturd wrote:
Innocent until 'proven' guilty.
I could accuse you of being a gay pedophile.
No evidence, nothing, just my word against yours.
Are you ok with that?
Not only that, there's a chance they did a needle relay on the bus or in the room.
The tour has both individual and team awards. Your argument mightbwork for then team awards but not for individual awards.
Let's say you ran a PR and you were paced by someone who admitted to being a PED user. Your PR still counts. Even though you could argue that the pacer and you were teammates it can' t be held against you.
At a very minimum, there is usually one "team" timed events during the Tour de France, where you ride only with your team members and the time of rider number X is the time given for the team. OP has a very good point...
...and yes, in the 2004 TdF, there was a team time trial and US Postal (which included Armstrong and Landis), won that stage. Good for them... I guess they were better trained and prepared then the other teams. They must still be pretty proud of that achievement... Congratulations to the whole US Postal team for that great performance...
0/10
terrible analogy. so if we find that a rabbit was on drugs in all distance races, should the records be wiped off the books?
landis' admission to doping was through a private email that was leaked.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=213765&postcount=474
this is too detailed to be fake. Cycling and most endurance sports, are very dirty.
You obviously don't know enough about cycling to see the difference -- the "individual" TdF title (or any other tour) is very much a team achievement...
Good and bad points being discussed. Lance is not a christain though and there is no actual evidence to convict/ take away titles. Sorry, he remains "innocent" in the eyes of courts, uci and wada. Public opinion is a different matter...
what people aren't understanding is that a strong team is necessary to win a tour de france and team riders will sacrifice themselves for the leader of the team, why do you think cadel evans never wins the TDF? because he has been with silence lotto and has an average team, that does little to help his chances.
it is well known that in cycling drafting helps by 10-20% (an arguable figure, but it is definitely a significant amount), any person that has actually watched a cycling race will understand what i mean when teams protect the leader, basically swarming around them in a circle as to provide them with perfect conditions for example drafting slipstream and no wind either side.
this concept is entirely different to a rabbit in a track or road race, the rabbit is there to run the planned pace and make money, there are no teams in track (except relays.
any help provided by dopers to team leaders should be nullified by disqualifying the entire team
78788 wrote:
landis' admission to doping was through a private email that was leaked.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=213765&postcount=474this is too detailed to be fake. Cycling and most endurance sports, are very dirty.
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That was unreal. I mean, he really came clean. This will have a huge effect on cycling.
I always knew it was dity, and was always told so by the cycling friends of mine.
But, this is still huge.
If you stripped Armstrong of his titles, who would get them? How far back in the GC would you need to go to find a clean rider?
This isn't the first time that a cycling team member has been caught and/or admitted to doping and there have never been sanctions imposed on other members of the team. If they were to sanction Armstrong based on this is would be a major change in policy. It's doubtful this is going to happen retroactively.
If, based on the Landis information, the governing body were to conclusively prove the accusation that Armstrong was doped or that the team systematically doped, that is a different matter and he might well be sanctioned.
OP brings up a good point that can and should be applied to team sports. Should the Yankees give up their title because Arod admitted to using PED's. Tulane lost their whole basketball program in the late '80's for cheating. FSU lost a track title and 10 football games due to academic cheating. Should the SF Giants lose their 2002 NL Pennant due to Bonds' cheating.
What are the current rules in the Tour de France?
Are all individual performances wiped out of any team member that tests positive during the Tour?
Were the placings of Landis' teammates in 2006 removed from the results?
So, I've followed Lance for years, since his first tour win, and I have become a huge fan. Before I begin, I am biased towards him. I would just like to point out to everyone the obvious. A flawed, caught man is accusing everyone else. A man who has lost everything now accuses those who still have so much. A man who had to cheat to win is accusing those who did not have to cheat to win. He even wrote a book about his cheating with a completely different story. If everyone around Landis is saying he has always been jealous of Lance and that he is a liar, I think that is probably something to pay attention to. I hope that I am right and that Landis is just a jealous liar who lost his time in the limelight and is now trying to get more...But what do I know? I'm just a college runner with mediocre pr's.
That track analogy doesn't make sense to me. It sounds like you're saying that the entire olympic track and field team should stripped of their medals if even one member on a relay team is caught doping. You can't prove that Lance couldn't have won without his teammates like you could prove that a relay team couldn't have won without one full leg.