Disciplining a kid on team (A week before Penn) HELP

This is grandstanding, pure and simple.

If you want him to become a man, you'll do what is right, not what is easy. He obviously does not have enough male influences in his life, and you can provide some of this.

Integrity is part of being an adult. He is old enough to learn the lesson. He made his choice. Let him know that you accept his choice not to run.

I am SO glad to hear that you pulled him from the relay and put someone else in. It doesn't matter what kind of an environment he comes from....rules are rules. If you start allowing kids to slide just because you feel sorry for them, then they will never learn that actions have consequences. It is always shocking when a coach actually does what he says he is going to do, but everyone remembers it. Now this kid has to come to practice and not participate in Penn Relays because of his actions. HE has let his teammates down, and that is it.

A terrible home environment does not mean that kids are treated differently. Everyone needs to know that actions have reactions....

Good for you coach.

There now seem to be two or more people posting under the "firstyearcoach" moniker, so I don't think we can rely on further posts from that individual(s).

I still don't think there were any ideal solutions, but agree with an earlier poster who said that the kid was choosing to leave the team. He had already been kicked off two other teams, so he certainly knew what the results of his in/actions would be.

I will grant that he may feel, based on his individual circumstances, that his choice was the right one to make, or the only one he could make; but it was still his choice.

I'm reminded of yet another JoeNewtonism: "Resisters will always fail you in the clutch." For the first X years of my coaching career I really resisted that advice; with time, I came to see that Joe was essentially correct. Had this kid been put back on the relay squad, there's no reason to to be confident that he would have shown up at future practices, or on the day that the team was supposed to go to Penn; and there's no reason to be confident that he would have competed to his ability, if he did go.

Meanwhile, as another poster said, the other kids on the squad--the good kids, the ones who ought to be getting the coach's attention--are left in limbo. "Will he show up for the trip to Penn? Will he show up to practice? Will he race the way he's able?" Not exactly the best way to prepare your team for a big meet.

I'm not ignoring or belittling the difficult circumstances that the no-show kid may be living in. But some of the dependable kids may also be struggling with, and handling, circumstances just as tough. Why not reward them with (at least) a settled practice/competition situation--a situation that's as dependable as they are?

This is a great discussion as many of us have had to face similar situations, albeit prob not with as much of a talent in such a situation.

FYC, first i would like to applaud you for your efforts to help this kid out. But i want to remind you not to take his actions personal. I'm not saying you cannot get personally involved with this kid but just do note take the outcome personal. He may act as a "shithead" but you can never let that thought guide how you feel about him or you should just stop trying all together.

He seems like he has lots of issues he is dealing with. I think you took some good steps to get him out to practice. But as was mentioned by Red, i'm not so sure they were the steps HE needed. I see his issues being bigger then track and any talent he may have in it. This kid prob has had people give up on him his entire life. So giving the ultimatum probably upset him more then anything. He probably thought to himself that he couldn't succeed in those regards so he sabotaged himself instead of trying.

I would have pulled him from the relay as well but maybe not from the team. I think the heart to heart is a good idea. But i suggest trying to only seek out his side and not push your agenda. I would focus pushing any ego or competitiveness aside and really getting to understand him better as a person first. The team and his talent are a tool but that is all they are. He needs to know that you are there to help him no matter if he runs for you again or not. Sure you can let him know that your job is to the team first but that you want to be there for him if he ever needs you.

When speaking with him ask him open ended questions and let him speak. you just listen to everything he says or does. let him guide the conversation and let him tell you what he needs from you. reassure him that you will do what you can to help him as long as he will TRY to work with you. I emphasis TRY bc he is just a kid and he needs to learn but changing habits take time. Maybe let him set some standards of behavior and commitments that he feels comfortable with. It may be less then what the team's standards are but maybe as long as he is working towards them he is allowed to practice/run. You can maybe get him to commit to a counseling session once a week where he just gets your ear for half an hour. If he just needs a listening ear it will do wonders for him. Also, if he is working (legally) for money then that should always be acceptable as long as he is willing to do the practices he can. Showing flexibility with him and his training based on the situation will only help your integrity and influence of the team.

Remember taking the first step in a run is the most important. If you get him started and be patient then i think it will work out for the best.

Best of luck at with everything and keep us updated if you will. We all can grow from this situation.

Live up to your word. Your credibility as a coach depends on it.

You drew a line in the sand and he crossed it. There's no question--he's out.

You may run slower at Penn, but your teams will do better in the long run because you have established discipline and clear expectations. If you stand firm, you will not only show clear expectations but also will create some peer pressure: the kids will feel more responsibility not to let down the group.

You already told him what the consequence would be. Are YOU going to live up to your word? Because if you don't, you are modeling lack of responsibility--and it sounds like this kid has enough of that already.

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if this kid is testing you, maybe unconsciously or maybe deliberately. If you are firm but fair, he may thank you later. Make it clear that you want him on the team but that he has to do the work.

Penn may seem like a big deal, but actually this one race is small potatoes compared to everything else at stake--namely your credibility, team discipline and this kid's education.

I have 2 things to say:

1- As you mentioned, this kid is from an inner city school, bad family life, probably did not have many rules and expectations set for him throughout his life. I truly believe this is why he will disappear for a few days, then come back and work his ass off, then disappear, etc. No one has taught him that hard consistent work = success, but you must be present for that to happen. He has probably made it through much of his athletic career so far just because he is good, not because he's earned anything. You did the right thing by pulling him off the squad for Penn- I'm sure you've probably had this discussion with him before and maybe this will be a wake up call. Maybe his relay teammates will also get on his ass now, make sure you remind them of what they may have accomplished if this kid was racing with them- they are now losing out on a possible Penn Relays title. I always told my kids that I can discipline you, yell, pull you out of meets, make you run extra, etc., but hearing disappointment from your own teammates is much worse.

2- One year we had a girl who was in and out of practice, came and went as she pleased, pissed off her teammates when she did show up, generally was a pain in the ass- and to make it even better she thought she was REALLY good. Our rule for the season was if you miss more than 5 practices without an written excuse from a teacher, doctor, etc., you were off the team. She had missed more than 5 but talked us into letter her run at the conference meet (this was my first mistake). She ran in the 100 semis at our conference meet, and grabbed the last qualifying spot for finals by literally .001. Later in the day one of her 4x4 relay teammates just didn't run in her open race because she didn't feel like it, making her ineligible for the relay and costing us some bigtime team points in the process. After I talked to the girl who didn't run her race, I got her relay teammates together, explained the situation- they were all really mad as well- and I suggested that maybe they let their teammate know how mad they were because I had already let her know what I thought. I also suggested that since they were all hanging out in the bleachers together while she should have been racing, maybe they should have prodded her along a little bit more to make sure she ran that open race so they could run their relay, as they know the rules- if you don't run one race, you can't run any following. Long story short, the girl who qualifed to the 100 finals came to the meet the next day and said she was not going to race finals because I had "disrespected" her the day before by saying it was her fault that the other girl did not run in her open race. The finals ended up being a 7 person final and the coach of the 9th place girl out of semis came up to me and asked where our girl was, I told him the story, and he said in so many words that his girl was crushed to not make the final and this was like pouring salt in the wound. All I could think was that we should not have let our girl race in the first place.

Stick to your guns. I think you're doing the right thing and you might take some heat for it now and you might not win a thing at Penn but these kind of decisions affect more than just the kid who is not running at Penn.

How about taking a surprise blind vote from the team - unanimous with one abstention/dissention would be required for the slacker to participate? I wonder what coaches think of this method?

There cannot be two sets of rules, one for the stars and one for everyone else. Kids really understand the word "fair." Unless you want the majority of kids on the team emulating this behavior you must stick to the stated consequences. As a teacher/coach, you must have rules and consequences. Just apply the consequence. If you want a long term successful program, you must establish a work ethic and obviously part of that is mandatory attendance at practice. You'll will really make either a positive point or a negative to the team with your decision. Think of it this way, you are developing (by being a role model) this kid. Will his boss allow him to skip work in a few years? You are helping him grow up by setting fair standards.

How about you use the kid so that you and the other relay members can benefit by possibly winning th relay. Once that is done, discard him like trash.

That will prepare him for what is in store later in life.

The kid has to bring something to the table. Sh!t happens in life and you have to deal with it appropriately. I'd tell him that A) he isn't running and B) if he wants to run for your team in any meets after Penn then he needs to go and support his teammates and figure out that it's not just about him.

I see some of you telling the coach not to be a dick and IMHO you are all part of the problem with the lack of personal accountability.

I've seen the coach of the 11 time girl's state champions in our state sit out studs for violating team rules in a hotel the night before a meet. They lost the meet the next day, but that's better than losing the kids. BTW, that school is in the worst hoods next to a major US city. His kids love and respect the man and many go on to very good D1 programs.

It's not about YOUR resume' coach. But, even if it is, in the long run you gain more by following through with your word.

Reach out to the kid by helping him be accountable, not by hoping that he gets it this week.

Most of the HS kids care far less than you're all implying.

I actually just registered this name because of the other people posting under it (really though guys?)

Obviously I'm not letting him run and I've had our principal approach me and tell me I'm doing the right thing (He obviously knows the talent of this kid).

For those who have assumed that I have not reached out and attempted to make a difference in the kids life, I have done more then that.

I've called on weekends to make sure he's okay, bought him his first pair of spikes, gave him rides home, grabbed him out of class to make sure he's academically okay, and the list goes on.

This has been a tough week for me, because let's me honest, winning is fun. When you have a team that comes together like ours did, all you can thing about are the possibilities.

Was it selfish of me to come on here and post about how bad I wanted to win? Heck yeah.. I've put in more hours then most coaches do and as a result I thoroughly enjoy the benefits.

You can only do so much for one kid before it is up to them, and that is what I feel has happened. I'll be sure to let you know how our team does this week.

Pardon my grammar.. late night

Here’s what happened to me when I was in high school (from a runner’s standpoint):

We would have Friday morning practices for cross country. Basically it was mandatory for the top 7 guys to show up while it was voluntary for the non top 7 guys. I was part of the top 7 group. Well one morning I decided not to show up and slept in because I did not feel like showing up. My coach warned the top 7 guys about what would happen if we skipped. Well once I skipped he told me hours later that I was to be bumped down to the JV race our next meet. As pissed as I was I went in the JV race and easily destroyed everyone (not tooting my own horn). But I was still pissed and even embarrassed running in that race because I knew I did not belong there.

Point is that I learned that when my coach gave orders and if no one followed them he would carry out a punishment. He stood by his word if someone crossed the line. After that I had a new respect for my coach and learned not to walk over him. Because of that experience my relationship would grow and I found a lot more success with him.

So from an athlete’s standpoint, I would sit the kid out, it’s not like it’ll be the end of the world if he doesn’t go. If he’s that good and can run for an awesome program in college, I’m pretty sure he’ll go to other exciting places other than Penn Relays (i.e. Mt. Sac, NCAAs, Junior Olympics, etc.)

Dropping him from the relay team is the right call.

To the poster that said a coach's only job is getting the team to win, I hope your are a young teenager and not an adult. At the high school level, sports are about a lot more than winning. Even at the Olympic level, every athlete and coach do not have the goal of winning. For many it's getting a medal of any kind.

My concern in this situation stems from the following:

"I told him he had two strikes leading up until Penn and the next practice he missed he was DONE!"

This is the nuclear option. When the kids fails, and you almost know for sure that he's going to in a situation like this - kids don't change overnight, you will have lost the ability to work with him. This approach obviously didn't work with his prior sports. He was kicked off of those teams and he still F'd this up, too.

Last year we had a 1-in-20 year type sprinter miss several days at the beginning of the season. We have a points system for attendance. Once you exceed the limit you are done competing for the team. The athlete finished out the season running every practice, helping out at every meet, but he did not compete. It was a tough pill to swallow for all involved and a very visible reminder that team rules need to be followed. This year, the kid worked hard all winter and has been a sheer pleasure to work with in every aspect. If we had simply booted him from the team last year, I doubt he would be with us this year.

I love the quote that someone provided earlier in this thread that said something to the effect "don't establish any rule that you wouldn't apply to your best athlete at the worst possible time". Be firm, be consistent, etc. However, I think you should avoid consequences that remove the athlete from the coach's influence. It most cases the athlete isn't going to come back, and they are only going to remember that someone gave up on them. They aren't going to think about the situation in a mature rational fashion - if they had that capability they probably wouldn't have made the piss poor decisions they made earlier.

There are a wealth of consequences other than cutting a kid that can be used in most situations. They often take time and creativity to identify/implement, and so they are shunned for the easy out of cutting a kid.

FYC, I applaud your efforts and understand your frustations. Find a way to bring that kid back to you, if not the program. In the long run as a coach, how this relationship works out will be far more important that the race result at Penn.

First of all, winning at Penn is not going to change your coaching career. I have had a kid win at Penn in an individual race.

Having credibilty with your athletes will change your coaching career for the better. Make a rule, follow through with it.

This past winter I coached a 4 x 8 team that would have finished 2nd at nationals, one of the kids on the relay team went skiing in Utah for the entire week leading up to the race and was returning the night before so that she could run. I told her and the team that that wasn't going to work, she needed to show commitment to the team and be at practice with them or the team would not run. She went skiing and the team did not run, the National meet was 20 miles from our school, certainly would have been easy to drive over.

Anyways, the other three were mad that I said no, but they realized it was the fourth girls fault, they have come out for outdoors and our working hard and motivated. No one is skipping practice.

I'm really wary of siccing teammates on each other, or allowing them to express displeasure with each other. It might work in certain situations (like the one you described above), but the girls will take it as carte blanche to treat anybody any way they want ("we're just telling each other how we feel about their commitment!") when it really has nothing to do with commitment.

I was a hs runner not long ago and now I'm in college helping out with our local hs team and there's always a really sweet, hard-working, committed girl on the team who the other girls just don't like, not because of her personality, but because they can form a group and not like her, and thus be part of that group, which is so important to hs girls. I have seen kids crushed over this petty stuff and I have as little tolerance for that as I do for missing practices. Trouble is, it's harder to figure out exactly when this stuff is going on, even if you do know it's happening. But I've benched girls for being mean before, and I don't regret it one bit. I expected the entire team to start hating me, even the victim of this meanness (for embarrassment) so I was really really surprised when I began to get more respect and the girls started being more inclusive.

Anyway, back to the OP's question, I agree with your decision. Shows the kids that being a flake (the fast guy with issues) doesn't get you anywhere, but consistently working hard, even if you're not one of the best, will pay off in the end (the 5th guy).

And I would, like you are planning to, follow up with the problem kid. Keep reaching out to him. It may drain you, but in the end (maybe not even in hs), he will likely come to realize and appreciate one person who never gave up on him.

If you are entering multiple relays - only let him run in one of them. He gets the experience and the disappointment. Plus, the kids that have been there also get the experience.

If you are in only one relay. Take the alternate and take him, too. Run the alternate.

Rethink this ultimatum process in the future.