Timing question at HS track meets

I think by lane is better. What if it's a close finish? Who times which person? Also, all the timers have to keep count of how many have finished already. Yes, that's easy, but through a long hot day mistakes are hard to avoid. If you go by lane than it's all settled ahead of time. Of course in a close finish both runners will realistically have the same hand time.

Curious, why do you prefer by place? I know you're not alone. I think some rulebook(s) recommend that method but I don't remember.

You can almost always get away with timing by lane, but in short sprints, timing by place is best. Or at least have some judges. I hate it when you have inexperienced timers and they are switching watches. Use judges and time by place. Or at least use experienced timers then.

With a functioning FAT this is all moot of course, but when the hand timers (with no pickers available) the timers become the final say.

If I know that I have to pick 3rd (or whatever) place, that's all I'm watching for. If the timers' times don't agree (ie the 3rd place time has a faster time than the 2nd place) that is easily fixed by the recorder. I feel it is more important to get places correct first.

If timing by lane there is the possibility that the timer will get a faster time for the kid in their lane even though they may have finished behind the kid whose time reflects a higher placement. If you're not looking for place the time on the watch will dictate who finished where.

Very rarely do you have 8 volunteers who are perfect in their timing skills. Despite going over the rules of starting the watch with the smoke of the gun and timing the finisher by their torso across the line, you can still get discrepancies.

I 100% believe it is best to time by lane, and then compare.

I do FinishLynx timing for colleges and high schools. I can tell you, 90% of the time, a close finish is won by the person initially ahead, not the person catching up. But 90% of the time, people believe that the person catching up DOES catch them, because we're influenced by what happens after the finish line.

But, in all seriousness. If you've got a Finishlynx system, why are the timers even there? Since the Finishlynx was brought in, has there ever been a need for the backup timers? (if the answer is yes, the finishlynx people need more training.

Always time by place. Of course, you need someone in the timing stand that knows what he/she is doing.

PDong wrote:

But, in all seriousness. If you've got a Finishlynx system, why are the timers even there? Since the Finishlynx was brought in, has there ever been a need for the backup timers? (if the answer is yes, the finishlynx people need more training.

Completely agree here. As long as you know how to use it Finishlynx is 1000 times more accurate than hand timers could ever be. You don't need a backup unless the system breaks down.

This year I, a parent, have been helping time some of our home meets. We never have enough timers to get all lanes or finishers so we only get the top 3 or 4 finishers. If we needed to get times for everyone we would do it by lanes. Even if you are just trying to get the third place runner, it is difficult if it is a tight race. You often need someone that is not a timer to see who actually placed where. Hand timing in a close race is tough but the overall focus is more on getting the placement correct, times are secondary.

Read your national rule book. It clearly states that timing must be done by place, not by lane. There is so much human error involved in hand times. It is absurd to think you can rely on comparing times to figure out what place people finished in the 100m dash for example. Each person should be assigned a place, not a lane. It's what the rule book says, so to do it any other way is simply invalid.

And please be sure to round your hand times up to the next tenth. Never record hand times to the hundreths. For example, 13.11=13.2. There are so many incompetent coaches out there. All you have to do is read the rule books.

The best way to time is to time by lane (it is impossible to time by place in a close race like the 100. What happens is two people will time the same person thinking they came in first or second and another person will not be timed)

.....but if you do time by lane you must

Have 2 judges standing on oposite sides of the finishing line whose only job is to get the places indepedent of each other.

If someone can explain to me how you time by place in a 100 meter race when the top 6 runners are withen 100th of a second of each other then I'll change my point of view. The human eye can not react that fast and there will always be mistakes.

It is just easier to time by lanes and then have independant place judges whose only job is to figure out who placed where.

Place is better and by lane is not acceptable.

Here's why:

You have HUMANS timing. If the person timing lane 6 gets 11.36 in the 100 and the person timing lane 8 gets 11.40, they both get 11.40- who finished first? You're timers are counting lanes not places. You cannot use hundredths in hand timing to break ties.

Also, it's very possible (we're all human) that the person timing lane 6 gets 11.28 and the person timing lane 8 gets 11.31. But, the person in lane 8 actually beat the person in lane 6. It's possible and it happens all the time that, say, place 4 has a slower time than place 5 even though place 4 clearly beat place 5. We are humans and sprints can be very close.

Do not use the lane method, it seems logical to someone who doesn't know track, but it wrong.

PDong wrote:

But, in all seriousness. If you've got a Finishlynx system, why are the timers even there? Since the Finishlynx was brought in, has there ever been a need for the backup timers? (if the answer is yes, the finishlynx people need more training.

The timers are usually for back up just in case. There have been instances where we've had rain and our FAT oeprator does no like to set the Finish Lynx system up for rainy meets.

We will also use hand times in some of the distance races, where we will run multiple divisions (JV and Varsity) or boys and girls in the same race. The FAT operator says that it is difficult to take the FL image and data and convert it to Hy-Tek when we combine races. We will typically use a multi-memory watch with one timer for those races.

I run the finish line at our home meets and we are usually lucky to have six timers, one for each lane, and that's what they time...the lane. I judge the positions, we rank the order, and make small time adjustments if necessary. Obviously two runners can be awarded the same time when one is clearly ahead of the other. In the 100 and the 200, I also ask a coach from the visiting team(s) to back up my judging. We shoo the kids away and confer. In almost 30 years of doing this, I can recall only two occasions when there's been any debate and once in a tri-meet, each of the three judges saw a different winner (no one picked his/her own runner). I don't remember the resolution.

Anyone who understands measurement (any type of measurement) and the uncertainty associated with measurement would know that timing by lane will only produce mistakes in the results. Since time is somewhat arbitrary and place is what determines outcome, place MUST be timed. And this is why the rule book states how to time. Also, there should be no discussion, the experts formulate the rules for a reason.

That's fine and it seems to work, but by timing places (which actually follows the rules) you have multiple people judging place and not just one with a back up.

When officials are trained they are taught to watch for their place and not "watch the race". I have done it. I hate timing 3-6, especially in a 55 indoors.

I guess whatever way works, but timing place and not lane is the way it is supposed to be done. Theoretically, you would have trained, paid officials doing the timing.

We have had inexperienced people and parents suggest the lane method- because it does seem logical. But, again, it isn't as accurate and is plain and simply wrong. Until you have an issue that alters the outcome of a meet or who qualifies to go on in championship meets, your system is fine. When there is an issue someone will have a real case.

Well........ wrote:

If someone can explain to me how you time by place in a 100 meter race when the top 6 runners are withen 100th of a second of each other then I'll change my point of view. The human eye can not react that fast and there will always be mistakes.

It is just easier to time by lanes and then have independant place judges whose only job is to figure out who placed where.

Please show me a set of results where 6 runners finished within 100th of a second of each other.

Your reasoning is nonsensical. If the human eye can not react fast enough to time by place, then the human eye can not react fast enough to pick a place. Stopping a watch when a person crosses the finish line is no more difficult then thinking "that guy finished first" while someone crosses a finish line. Will you have eight timers and eight place pickers? Clearly you will need at least that, possibly more since you claim it impossible for the human eye to even pick out a place. Good luck getting 16 quality people to work your meet in addition to filling all of the other required roles.

Timing by place is not only the preferred method, it is the only accepted method by the rule book.

And I'm going to be a jerk for a second, but PDong and khap are examples why our sport is screwed up. You two are coaches, with a responsibility with working with young track athletes .... AND YOU TIME BY LANE? Good god......

Place

Is the letsrun community that stupid?

You HAVE to time by place, not by lane. If you think otherwise, please don't host any meets.