Craig Virgin's Terrible Decisions

I knew Craig personally around the time he achieved world titles in XC.

One year he personally went out of his way to run an errand for me (cos I was sans wheels), at the risk of his missing a flight to a major meet.

...And I ran into him about twenty years later.

He was still the same guy: the nicest guy you ever met, well spoken, classy, intelligent, informed.

And ETHICAL.

In my dreams I would have had his talent, and been a class act.

I'll take his opinion of the era as well informed and without bitterness; and with REALISM.

I am willing to bet Malmo will reflect a similar opinion about Craig.

I'm sure he is a class act... but I think its a little strange that it has become "common wisdom" in track and this website that the WRs of the 90s are not legitimate.

Is it possible that they were on it? Of course. Does Virgin have insider knowledge that I don't? maybe (I doubt it, but maybe). All I'm saying is that without presenting some evidence why bother with the accusations... maybe its to sooth his own ego. I'm sure its a little irritating to watch E. Africans run a minute faster than you 15 years later. But breakthroughs happen.

Or maybe he knows something. If he does it would be nice if he named names but that's not going to happen because in the absence of hard evidence (and if that were handy the people in question would be out of the sport) naming names is libellous.

So what do you do? Do you make a general statement which lets people fill in the blanks or do you simply smile and say "Man those guys are great?"

Other than drugs, what significant breakthroughs in training, diet, or anything else have occured since the 70's?

The breakthrough might be in the gene pool of runners particpating in the sport. My guess is that far more E. Africans participated in the sport starting in the 80s and this ballooned in the 90s. A larger pool of talented runners increases the chances for WRs.

E_Smith wrote:

In Virgin's interview he implicitly accuses Geb and Tergat of being drug cheats, crediting the WR progression at 5K/10K in the 90s to EPO (that was a direct statement or close to it). This seems to be an irresponsible and self-serving attack on the two of the greatest legends in track.

He did not 'implicitly' accuse Geb and Tergat of anything. You're the one who's doing that. He merely pointed out that the great drop off of times coincidentally came at the exact moment (1988) that EPO came onto the market. He also pointed out that that trend reversed in the last few years, coincidentally, when EPO testing became better.

Wipe the foam off of your mouth.

E_Smith wrote:

The breakthrough might be in the gene pool of runners particpating in the sport. My guess is that far more E. Africans participated in the sport starting in the 80s and this ballooned in the 90s. A larger pool of talented runners increases the chances for WRs.

There are more East Africans running now than 10 years ago? Why aren't there as many sub 13 and sub 12:50 performers then?

im·plic·it   /ɪmˈplɪsɪt/ Show Spelled[im-plis-it] Show IPA

–adjective

1.implied, rather than expressly stated: implicit agreement.

He credited the WR progression in the 90s to EPO, correct? What conclusion is "implicit" there?

I think Rono would've run sub-13 back in the day had he not been sidetracked by alcohol. I saw him run 14:25 in Pullman his senior year at WSU, he was fat and out of shape. A couple months later he re-set the 5K record at 13:06.

Giving good coaching, guidance, and support, I think Rono would've run sub-13, 27:10, and sub-8 in the steeple. He was setting his records without much direction or management of his personal life. Rono's 8:12 in the NCAA's looked like a jog in the park.

Barrios was the last clean WR holder in the 10k.

hey asshole wrote:

E_Smith wrote:

The breakthrough might be in the gene pool of runners particpating in the sport. My guess is that far more E. Africans participated in the sport starting in the 80s and this ballooned in the 90s. A larger pool of talented runners increases the chances for WRs.

There are more East Africans running now than 10 years ago? Why aren't there as many sub 13 and sub 12:50 performers then?

I didn't say that people weren't on EPO, I just said we have no idea who. Obviously, if people took it, then they ran faster...that doesn't mean that the WRs were run on it.

What's your point, just sayin it? Just because he does an errand for you he becomes a saint?

Why is it that John Treacy (who won world XC the two years before Virgin) doesn't get put on the same pedestal (and he won an Olympic medal) as Americans do for Craig (besides the obvious), and why doesn't he feel compelled to say the same things about others being on drugs (like Lopes for example).

Perhaps Americans should look at their own woeful development of athletes (it's structural incompetence afterall not lack of talent) before assuming that others can't do better, or must be on drugs in order to do so - not that some might have done so, but no more so than Americans (who have no more a claim, maybe even less, to morality than any other culture). The Africans (as has been mentioned quite often) have developed because there is the talent to do so, without excuse, the willopwer to train well, and the need to perform well (12.56 doesn't cut it to make some of their teams) or you become irrelevant. The Brits ruled the 1500m in the 80's, in part because there were a lot of athletes prepared to do the work, and excellence was required to even make National teams. Look at Graham Williamson, the Alan Webb of his time - who few Americans have even heard of - who couldn't make Brit teams (with Ovett, Coe, Cram, Moorecroft, Elliot, Buckner, etc.) That is also what makes great developmnent - internal competition. The US, with it's poorly centralized system (unlike the Kenyan training camps and Ethiopian or Morrocan federations to develop and nurture its talent) relies on a ridiculous school (HS/College) development system, which has generally poor coaching given the number of participants. Having said that, there are some quite excellent coaches, many who don't get the opportunity to coach the most talented athletes (too often left to good recruiters who waste a lot of the talent). But the biggest disservice is to allow many to believe that their system (U.S) actually does a great job at development, when in fact it doesn't, and that there are others outside the US who might have a better understanding on the sport and their athletes.

Look at World XC next weekend. Are the best junior age (HS/College) runners competing in Poland? If not, why not? When the best have been put into a position to realize that this is what it is all about, and not NCAA or Footlocker/NTN, (as athletes in other countries are taught to believe) then the US can expect to be equal to others in other countries without having to resort to the childish attitude that anyone who beats them must be on drugs.

free willy wrote:

But the biggest disservice is to allow many to believe that their system (U.S) actually does a great job at development, when in fact it doesn't, and that there are others outside the US who might have a better understanding on the sport and their athletes.

Look at World XC next weekend. Are the best junior age (HS/College) runners competing in Poland? If not, why not? When the best have been put into a position to realize that this is what it is all about, and not NCAA or Footlocker/NTN, (as athletes in other countries are taught to believe) then the US can expect to be equal to others in other countries without having to resort to the childish attitude that anyone who beats them must be on drugs.

What have the Brits or any other non-African system have to compare with this?

Lagat - College. Multi-medal, one of the greatest of all time.

Meb - Highschool and college. Olympic Silver at Marathon.

He actually said he was clean. But what is interesting is that in Virgin's world drugs and blood doping are something that happened to the sport right after he was relevant... setting up the illusion of Before Craig and After Craig (B.C./A.C.). In B.C., track was an idyllic utopia where everyone was clean and competition was pure. In A.C., starting in 84, when people started running faster than Virgin, everything becomes clouded by doping. From 27:30 on down to 26:20, you just can't be sure, every athlete is suspect, every world record is presumed dirty.

hetero man wrote:

Geb and Tergat ARE drug cheats. So was El G, Komen, Wilson Kipketer, Michael Johnson, Lagat (maybe he still is), Noah Ngeny, Kevin Young, Flo Jo and a shitload of other athletes. Virgin speaks the truth. He is a true hero.

Thanks for that insight. Very helpful.

That isn't what he said. He said be 84 (when Finnish guy got caught) everyone thought that steroids and the like was a sprint/weight thing. AFter 84 you couldn't deny that distance guys did drugs. Similarly I don't think Virgin thought that Rono was doing drugs. I think he is being a bit naive (after 76, you had to be real suspicious of the eastern europeans) but maybe he was largely right. Maybe pumping the various steroids didn't help distance guys much and it wasn't until EPO that everyone got 20 secs faster.Hey maybe the whole sport is clean but after the number of top guys that have been caught over the past 5 years, you have to ask are more people doing drugs or is the testing just getting better?

E_Smith wrote:

He actually said he was clean. But what is interesting is that in Virgin's world drugs and blood doping are something that happened to the sport right after he was relevant... setting up the illusion of Before Craig and After Craig (B.C./A.C.). In B.C., track was an idyllic utopia where everyone was clean and competition was pure. In A.C., starting in 84, when people started running faster than Virgin, everything becomes clouded by doping. From 27:30 on down to 26:20, you just can't be sure, every athlete is suspect, every world record is presumed dirty.

I will bet that you think that Lance was clean too?Don't be so naive dude - no doubt that they were doped to the gills.

E_Smith wrote:

I'm sure he is a class act... but I think its a little strange that it has become "common wisdom" in track and this website that the WRs of the 90s are not legitimate.

Is it possible that they were on it? Of course. Does Virgin have insider knowledge that I don't? maybe (I doubt it, but maybe). All I'm saying is that without presenting some evidence why bother with the accusations... maybe its to sooth his own ego. I'm sure its a little irritating to watch E. Africans run a minute faster than you 15 years later. But breakthroughs happen.

a wrote:

That isn't what he said. He said be 84 (when Finnish guy got caught) everyone thought that steroids and the like was a sprint/weight thing. AFter 84 you couldn't deny that distance guys did drugs. Similarly I don't think Virgin thought that Rono was doing drugs. I think he is being a bit naive (after 76, you had to be real suspicious of the eastern europeans) but maybe he was largely right. Maybe pumping the various steroids didn't help distance guys much and it wasn't until EPO that everyone got 20 secs faster.

Hey maybe the whole sport is clean but after the number of top guys that have been caught over the past 5 years, you have to ask are more people doing drugs or is the testing just getting better?

OK, yeah that is more accurate...the distances were more or less pure according to him prior to 84 (though there were rumors w/ Athletics West).

I don't know about the testing, my guess would be maybe the testing is catching up with the science. Regardless, my point stands that accusing people w/o evidence is silly and sounds like you are making excuses. He has his right to his opinion, but making public statements is another story (and doing it with an air of "we have to face the facts here," yada yada yada).

[quote]Boom Boom Pow wrote:

I will bet that you think that Lance was clean too?

Don't be so naive dude - no doubt that they were doped to the gills.

[quote]

Maybe they are great runners. seems just as likely to me. without evidence, other than great performances, why should we assume something.

Is Usain Bolt dirty, merely because he is insanely fast?