Robby Andrews will become the next Sebastian Coe. American mile domination is back!!!

Very odd how the late 1970's and early 1980's had so many great 800 runners...And why would the women be so dominant? Better training?

Because they were dudes.

Incidentally I think Coe's records are suspect. It's just too strange that no besides Kipketer has touched his times.

Robby Andrews is running great, but the debate right now is whether or not he's better than Wheating who has 1 NCAA title and got smoked in the Olympic 800 prelims in Beijing. He's not world class yet, though he likely will be. Give it time.

You wrote:

[/quote]

Incidentally I think Coe's records are suspect. It's just too strange that no besides Kipketer has touched his times.[/quote]

Ever heard of Joaquim Cruz? 1:41.77

Even the great Steve Cram -- not a speed demon -- ran 1:42.88 in the 1980s.

400 times are so crucial in the 800. That's why Wilson K ran so many of them.

cram ovett wrote:

I know he is not a Brit, but his running style is so similar to the great Sebastian Coe.

Troll comment on your part, but I'll bite. Robby doesn't run anything like Coe. The runner he is almost identical to is Fermin Cacho (Spain). They both run with their shoulders hunched up into their neck.

think fast wrote:

400 times are so crucial in the 800. That's why Wilson K ran so many of them.

Why don't you list a few of them then.

Thamesvalleyharrier wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

He would need world records not an American record to be the next Seb Coe

And also the aura of invincibility Coe had. When people raced Coe they felt they were racing for 2nd place. Is Rudisha likely to fear Andrews?

That aura of invincibility didn't extend to European championships, Commonwealth championships, or World championships.

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

And also the aura of invincibility Coe had. When people raced Coe they felt they were racing for 2nd place.

Here is a really good example.

Thamesvalleyharrier wrote:

And also the aura of invincibility Coe had. When people raced Coe they felt they were racing for 2nd place.

Ovett and Cram would be LTFAO at this.

history is good wrote:

Very odd how the late 1970's and early 1980's had so many great 800 runners...And why would the women be so dominant? Better training?

Because they were dudes.

Incidentally I think Coe's records are suspect. It's just too strange that no besides Kipketer has touched his times.

Suspect in what sense? You're suggesting PEDs?

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

Thamesvalleyharrier wrote:

And also the aura of invincibility Coe had. When people raced Coe they felt they were racing for 2nd place. Is Rudisha likely to fear Andrews?

That aura of invincibility didn't extend to European championships, Commonwealth championships, or World championships.

When he was at his peak between end of 78 and end of 82 he lost just 2 races at any distance. During this time, before the 2 years of illness he certainly did have an aura of invincibility. Scott and Coghlan both said at the time they couldn't expect to beat Coe at his best.

As for World Championships, he never run in any, so you should be more thorough with your research. The only Commonwealth final he contested was in 1990 at the age of 33 with a respiratory infection. He was way past his peak then and of course that aura was gone. The previous poster was talking about the 79-81 period; isn't that obvious!

Are you kidding? You think the old 70's tracks are as fast as the mondo ones of the last 10 years? The big improvements in the WRs in most events is not just down to PED's and improved training. The tracks are quicker today, or else they wouldn't keep replacing them every few years.

I'd say the Oslo track in 2010 is more than 0.1 faster per lap than the one used in the 70's.

As for pacemakers. There are a few guys now that can tow the likes of Rudisha close to 600m in 75.0 secs, just as there was for Kipketer in 97. There wasn't really anyone capable of wanting to try and reach 600 in that time in 79, let alone capable of it.

And your point is!?? God you're stupid

Firstly, let's look at some of those women, all of whom were from the Communist block, where it is now proven there was state funded and monitored drug programmes in operation in the 70's and 80's. It was propaganda and an extension of the Communists' identity and desire to prove it worked better than capitalism in the West.

Kratochvilova ( have you seen her body? ) - had only run 3 800m races before in her life, don't think below 2:00, then runs a WR and improves by 6 secs + at the age of 32!

Olizarenko - pb of 2:03.3 at age 22 (same age Coe broke WR). At age of 24 improves by 4 seconds in 1 season from 1:59.8 to 1:55.8.

Kazankina - At 24 has pbs of 2:01.7 & 4:05.9. Then in 1 season improves by more than 6 seconds in the 800m (1:55.0) to break the WR and 10 seconds in the 1500m (3:56.0). Then of course she's later banned for failing to take a drug test.

Mineyava- At age 27 has a v. decent pb of 1:57.8, then improves by 3 seconds in Olympic year to 1:54.8.

All the above would not have submitted to out of season random testing. All were obviously (?) women, who are far more responsive to the use of steroids ( the PED du jour at the time). Why do you think the Russians and East Germans were able to dominate practically all the women events and men's field events, while they produced no decent middle or long distance men?

Perhaps because steroids would have little effect on helping middle and distance men.

How many Russian female middle distance runners have been banned for drugs?

Then compare to how many British male middle distance runners have ever been caught using PEDs? Despite the fact the likes of Coe, Ovett and Cram would have undergone random out of competition testing from 1981 and out of season testing from 1985. Many years before other National federations or the IAAF introduced such measures.

Secondly, lets now look at Coe's progression.

1977 (age 20) - 1:44.95

1978 (age 21) - 1:43.97 (47.7 400m pb)

1979 (age 22) - 1:42.33 (46.8/45.5 relay)

..... 1989 (age 32) - 1:43.38

He had a long career sustaining high standards and running fast times over many years. His annual progression shows no obvious "jumps" like the Russian ladies listed above.

he looks finished wrote:

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

And also the aura of invincibility Coe had. When people raced Coe they felt they were racing for 2nd place.

Here is a really good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjzR8AOvEzc

You clearly have limited knowledge on the subject.

In 1978 Coe was 21. He had a pb of 1:44.3 and had gone down to 8.5 stones with a stomach bug in Prague. It was his first major champs and Ovett was the favourite.

The aura of invincibility came the next season after 3 WRs in 41 days.

epopians wrote:

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

That aura of invincibility didn't extend to European championships, Commonwealth championships, or World championships.

When he was at his peak between end of 78 and end of 82 he lost just 2 races at any distance. During this time, before the 2 years of illness he certainly did have an aura of invincibility. Scott and Coghlan both said at the time they couldn't expect to beat Coe at his best.

As for World Championships, he never run in any, so you should be more thorough with your research. The only Commonwealth final he contested was in 1990 at the age of 33 with a respiratory infection. He was way past his peak then and of course that aura was gone. The previous poster was talking about the 79-81 period; isn't that obvious!

Noone is impugning Seb's running abilities, but to say he had the aura of invincibility, even between 1979-1981 is a bit much. He was already a formidable runner in 1976 (post Montreal), and definitely a world leader in 1978.

Ironically, his best race ever may have been 1986 Euro 800, when he beat Cram when Cram was at his best.

Coe could have padded his resume by competing in Commonwealths 1978, 1982, 1986.

history is good wrote:

Very odd how the late 1970's and early 1980's had so many great 800 runners...And why would the women be so dominant? Better training?

Because they were dudes.

Incidentally I think Coe's records are suspect. It's just too strange that no besides Kipketer has touched his times.

What other 800m runner since Coe can match simultaneous 46 400m speed with sub 3:30 1500m? Errm? NONE.

That's why his record lasted so long.

If I had to chose who was more suspect - someone like Coe, with that sort of talent at 400 and 1500,

or - someone like Kipketer who could have been born in 1970 or 1972, depending where you look, and who competed in the days when EPO emerged and could not be tested for.

Then one looks far more suspect than the other.

Silly Old Fossil wrote:

Noone is impugning Seb's running abilities, but to say he had the aura of invincibility, even between 1979-1981 is a bit much. He was already a formidable runner in 1976 (post Montreal), and definitely a world leader in 1978.

Ironically, his best race ever may have been 1986 Euro 800, when he beat Cram when Cram was at his best.

Coe could have padded his resume by competing in Commonwealths 1978, 1982, 1986.

Perhaps you are an old fossil with just a touch of senile dementia!?

Perhaps you are getting mixed up with Ovett? For Coe DIDN'T even go to Montreal in 76. That year he ran an 800pb of 1:47.7 and came 7th in the Emsley Carr Mile, breaking 4 mins for the first time with 3:58.4!! Hardly formidable.

He was one of the best at 800m in 78, but Ovett was far stronger and favourite to win in Prague.

Coe didn't run in the 78 Commonwealths ( and neither did Ovett or the majority of the UK athletics team) because they were so close to the Europeans and in Canada. The Europeans were far more important and of a far higher standard. He didn't compete in 82 because he was ill with glandular fever, and he had to pull out of the 86 Commonwealth final with a chest infection.

You conveniently forget the easy wins he had in the 79 & 81 European Cups and the 81 World Cup, which were far more "loaded fields" than the 78 and 82 Europeans and Commonwealths.

I remember the 79-81 period well, and he had the same sort of aura that Snell or Ryun had in their peak years. In 61 races over 800 > he was only beaten twice in 4 seasons - famously to Ovett in Moscow and by 0.02 in Viareggio, 24 hours after just missing the 1500m WR.

There was always talk of World records when he stepped on the track, and he delivered 12 times. I think your memory must be failing you on this one.

Yes, after being beaten several times in 83 when ill, his aura did disappear. But up to that point, it was front page news in the UK if Coe was beaten.

Does that 1500m talent make your more suspect that he was blood doping since it would help more there than in the 800m. Or that steroids gave him the 46s speed that an endurance guy could get? Now I have no clue if Coe doped but saying he had fast 400m and a fast 1500m doesn't prove anything.

new juice wrote:

history is good wrote:

Because they were dudes.

Incidentally I think Coe's records are suspect. It's just too strange that no besides Kipketer has touched his times.

What other 800m runner since Coe can match simultaneous 46 400m speed with sub 3:30 1500m? Errm? NONE.

That's why his record lasted so long.

If I had to chose who was more suspect - someone like Coe, with that sort of talent at 400 and 1500,

or - someone like Kipketer who could have been born in 1970 or 1972, depending where you look, and who competed in the days when EPO emerged and could not be tested for.

Then one looks far more suspect than the other.

dasfasd@hasd.com wrote:

Does that 1500m talent make your more suspect that he was blood doping since it would help more there than in the 800m. Or that steroids gave him the 46s speed that an endurance guy could get? Now I have no clue if Coe doped but saying he had fast 400m and a fast 1500m doesn't prove anything.

It explains why he was so good at the distance in between! The 800m.

As someone else pointed out, Coe would probably have been the most tested athlete at the time. The UK were randomly testing their main athletes years before others.

If you go with what you hypothesise, that Coe had this combination because he was on steroids for speed and blood doping for endurance, then are we to ask:- a) Why was he the only athlete doing this at the time, and getting away with it? Especially when those countries that were renowned for using PEDs, namely the East Europeans, couldn't offer anyone to get even close?

And b) Only 1 athlete in the era when EPO was undetectable, was able to run faster on a drug that would have been more effective than blood doping, some 20 years later?

No I don't think Coe, Ovett,and Cram were doping. And yeah if you have a fast 400 and a fast 1500, you will run a fast 800m. But a fast 1500m doesn't say anything about not being a doper. And having a slow 1500m and a blister 400m doesn't make you a doper either. The 800m seems to go in cycles between a speed event (400m/800m) and endurance (800m/1500m). Right now it seems like a speed one (guys with sub 46s speed) rather than endurance (3:32 1500m guys)