Does anyone have any info on the training progression of Rudy Chapa? It is generally accepted that he ran around 100 miles a week consistenty for a lot of his senior year in high school but how many years before that was he putting in higher mileage? Was he running 50mpw his Freshman or Sophomore years before progressing to higher mileage?
bump
High mileage in HS.
Less mileage/ higher quality as a collegiate when he raced
considerably faster.
dsrunner has the day off wrote:
High mileage in HS.
Less mileage/ higher quality as a collegiate when he raced
considerably faster.
That's debatable. His 28:32 as a high schooler is unbelievable.
letsrun buffoon wrote:
dsrunner has the day off wrote:High mileage in HS.
Less mileage/ higher quality as a collegiate when he raced
considerably faster.
That's debatable. His 28:32 as a high schooler is unbelievable.
...Listen, I was a teammate of Rudy's, and I highly recommend you don't state buffoonry crap like this unless you can provide cogent links.
I do remember reading that Rudy ran intense mileage in high school, I never remember him (or Alberto, or any of us) talking about our high school mileage or workouts -- we were too focused on, like, the NOW, the work outs in front of us, and more importantly, CLASSES, and omni-presently...the wonderful college women of the University of Oregon. --We just did not talk with each other in that era about our high school work outs, mileage, or even our current mileage, we were in a legendary program, and in the moment, and just did it, and talked about other stuff (our crazy high school teammates)(classes, proffs, WOMEN.)
...So, unless you have sources from Rudy's high school coach, or interviews, quotes from Rudy himself, PASS on stating an opinion here.
--What Dellinger posted for our morning or Sunday runs, was often different than what each individual did. You'll never know what Rudy actually did at Oregon unless he states it (or stated it). (Alberto did more, bank on it).
--I have since read that some teammates of my era, totally skipped their morning runs (shocked the hell out of me, I NEVER DID, --might have been better off if I had...had more rest.)
My impression was that Rudy was burned out on running by his Junior year, and I have no idea really why, because he did not talk about it, and because we did not ask him about it.
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that it was not due to high school or college, but a combination of the two.
Dellinger's workload was not light, and it was not as individualized as Bowerman's.
Dellinger was a very nice guy. And well thought of for that reason. But he was a technician, and not a tactician (as Bowerman was).
Bowerman could be an ass, but was always a genius beyond it all.
Dellinger was a nice guy, but he was not the rocket scientist that Bowerman most assuredly was. (Eccentric as he was.)
Bowerman was wicked, brilliant, preternaturally, intuitively, smart...with some luck involved.
Dellinger was very, very, very nice, but he was of very average intelligence.
Dellinger's 100% was 30% of Bowerman's 100%.
And it all has nothing to do with Oregon, in a way, it is just a part of American history that happen to happen in the same state.
You can find the same contrast in some other state, in some other field...
BTW, it was pretty normal in the day for high school coaches to overs state the work their athletes were doing, in order to throw competing coaches off the scent of what they were really having their athletes doing -- and that was in an era of total over training...
He did run 7:37 for 3km, that is a stronger performance than 28:32. In high school, 120 miles per week as a prep as stated in the Eugene Register-Guard - Mar 30, 1978.
Are all of you Oregon guys nuts or what?
McMurphy wrote:
Are all of you Oregon guys nuts or what?
No, but if you know the era, most of us were total non bullshit artists.
Ever read an interview with Centrowitz Sr. ?
I just posted the way it was, and you are too stupid, perhaps, to appreciate it.
That is the way it was.
Was I the most free wheeling guy on the team? Yeah, telling it as it was, even then, often got me frowned upon, but name guys you know of, behind the scenes, shared the same opinions, pretty much. It was a no BS, non PC era.
And I could tell a lot more stories.
Why don't I?
Because this site only deserves hints and tidbits.
Kenny Moore's book is brilliant, but it is written to shine not the fullest light on the behind the scenes dark side of those times. Just enough to "reference" the truth, but not "tell tales out of school." And he did a wonderful classy job...but those of us around at the time, in and behind the scenes know all the rest of the stories.
...For your consideration: If you read through the archives of this site, you will find posts from any number of guys from the era detailing how almost all of the programs and approaches (of big name coaches) over trained us("meat grinding) in that era.
It doesn't mean these people were bad, they just didn't know any better at the time, it was the way of the day...
I have no regrets; wish I had today's knowledge back then, but it was what it was, and I loved it at the time, we were young, fit, high on life and fitness...being young and alive and in college after the sexual revolution and enjoying the best time in most folks lives... COLLEGE. Running, chasing women, and studying...usually in that order ofr most of us... Good times, man, GOOD times.
It was indeed a good time. Great running, great teammates, great track meets.
Call "nuts," maybe we were.
I don't regret a single minute.
Shout out to all the young studs on the current squad at Oregon.
--You guys inspire us old farts more than you know, and admire and respect your efforts and accomplishments more than we can ever express.
WIN IT ALL THIS SPRING, WIN IT ALL.
As you may of had quite similar training to Rudy, what did a typical week look like for you in the different phases/seasons of the year and how long did it take you to progress to higher mileage? Thanks for the inisight
Here's a little insight to his HS training. It's from a recent interview with Carey Pinkowski.
http://www.garycohenrunning.com/
Excerpt from the interview...
"Coach Candiano (HS Coach) was an accomplished athlete himself in high school and at DePaul University. When he coached us he was still a relatively young guy and was fit so he ran with us and trained with us. He brought an insight and fresh perspective to cross country and was a real ‘hands on guy’ who took some decent runners and gave us direction and guidance. He created quite a group of guys out of a nucleus of six or eight kids who wanted to work hard. We trained twice a day in the off season and then once the success started it snowballed. Dennis Cordell was two years older than me and ran a 9:06 2-mile and then Chapa, Keogh and I followed the blueprint for success. We saw Dennis working hard and being champion at big meets and we realized if we worked harder than other kids we had that same chance to succeed. Coach Candiano helped us understand that our training may not pay off immediately, but like ‘money in the bank’ would pay off in a year if we kept adding to it. There were periods when we did only distance when we may have hit 120 or 130 miles a week, but it was all easy. The key was that we did most of it in a park on soft surfaces on a trail that was maybe two and a quarter miles around so that kept us healthy. A lot of times we ran 45 or 50 miles in the morning without a specific distance – it was for time. Another thing we did was we ran varied pace maybe picking it up on one side of the park. We did a lot of changing speeds so it gave us the ability to be stronger. We didn’t run sessions like repeat 4:30 miles or 67 quarters but we just got competitive with each other. It wasn’t really a goal for the three of us to break nine minutes for two miles – it just happened."
Nelson -- "Mileage is the key factor. We studied Gerry Lindgren and Jim Ryun workouts and emulated them. Everyone was running more than 80 miles a week; some 120-150. Anyone running under 9 minutes (for 2 miles) was doing at least 100 miles a week. In the 1980's the scientists took over. They got away from running. Instead, they were stretching . . . hopping down the the field. They weren't distance running any more. They were into aerobics and science. "
-Jeff Nelson, former prep two-mile record holder and brief Oregon attendee.
Never did return to his old form. But, then again, consistently running over 100 miles per week in high school, with a high week of 142 is unreal. Ruinous, ultimately, if you ask me.
I second Rudy's teammate on all of this(especially the part about how wonderful we women were, some of the guys weren't too shabby either). very accurate summary of the time and place.
RE: Jeff Nelson
Maybe it wasn't the higher mileage that hurt him, but the fact that his workouts were raced alot in college (or maybe it was combination of both)? Malmo and others have mentioned that as a factor that can lead to injuries many times. I have also seen this myself and in others how it is not neccessarily the best approach for distance runners to take.
"Every workout was a race," said Nelson, who at 5-foot-7 and 140 pounds is 13 pounds heavier than he was as a senior at Burbank. "Every run was incredibly intense and, being a freshman, I wasn't used to it. I felt like I was being thrown to the lions. . . . Your teammates weren't really teammates. Everyone was out for blood, all the time."
I saw this article yesterday and saw that you refered to it also in a German Fernandez thread aswell.
Don't get me wrong. I totally agree. And 120-150 miles per week, at least for part of the season, probably is necessary to maximize potential during the running career, as per the purveyors of this site. However, I don't see the point of running well over 100 miles per week in high school, unless, of course, the goal is to peak in high school (for most, not all to be sure) or get injured or pave the way for the injury cycle.
If it wasn't already obvious, the only reason I brought up the Jeff Nelson quote was because it provided some semblance of the training methods "of the day." I'm sure running too hard too often is more likely the cause of injury, but 120+ miles in high school (or even in college) seems a excessive, even for the short light weights, nevermind the 6'3", 165 pound clydesdale on a relative scale.
Chapa ran 1319 5000m as a collegiate so probably closer to 2732 10000m shape at his best.
The 10000m is hardly ever run by a top HS distance kid.
Certainly Ritz and Fernandez and even Derrick (on 60 miles/week)could have had a decent shot at Chapa's record but focused elsewhere. I'd say the HS 3000m, 5000m, and 10000 records are roughly comparable, though I am happy I saw the 10000m record race.
All good - I understood what you said, just thought i'd add another possible factor before eveyone starts zeroing in on the mileage without even looking at other factors which may have contributed. Is the consensus that these guys jacked up the mileage or built up to it gradually?
Honestly, I don't know, but I was always under the impression that they built right into it out of season. Works for some guys. The late Eric Hulst comes to mind as well.
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~phoffman/nats/gods1/hulst3.htm
Then I immediately think of arguably the greatest pure American distance runner of all-time in Craig Virgin, who won world cross twice and quite possibly would've picked up the gold at 10,000 in 1980 had we not boycotted. From what I've read, he was a "1000-mile" summer kind of runner, obviously very talented. The "1000-mile" summer seems a lot more reasonable in terms of achieving in high school AND prepping one for the future.
I believe Jeff Nelson got married when he was quite young (I think he was still an undergraduate) and running wasn't so much a priority compared to being a good father.
Of course, if his wife was a female runner who couldn't resist the famous Jeff Nelson, I suppose, then, that the high mileage that led to his records could also be blamed for his having a family :P
Seriously, though, I think sometimes we forget fast runners aren't robots- their times as high schoolers, college athletes, and post-collegiates aren't just dependent on training. Runners go to college and might simply develop other interests or priorities. It isn't necessarily a reflection on their training.
My last post on this thread. Believe me, I am one of the staunchest advocates that there is way more to life than running. Running is a pretty self-absorbed, myopically-minded, obsessive pursuit when you get right down to it. Olympic dreams are fine and noble, but you pretty much know where you stand by the time you're an upperclassmen in college (at least whether or not you have "potential"). With very few exceptions (even Brian Sell broke 29:00 for 10k in college I believe), odds are highly likely that, unless you are one of the very best, your "elite" running career may take you as far as a few years after college, some free shoes and travel, and perhaps a small stipend. And it's not an easy life. To each his own though...