OLD SUB 4 and others from sub 1:50 800 thread

To respond to your first question, my opinion is that this is not necessarily true for some athletes. It depends on how the runner has trained, how the race was run (tactics, pace distribution, quality of field, etc), and what the respective runners' strengths/weaknesses are.

But this is just my view. There are many research findings that hold the view that you've just posted.

To respond to yr next question, I believe the sessions you've listed are just part of the picture. Yes having solid aerobic strength allows the runner to better buffer against acidosis in the latter stages of an 800m race, such that she/he slows down less than a less aerobically-trained competitor.

But if said runner lacks the required leg speed, physical strength, and nervous ability to change gears, then that aerobic strength may not necessarily help, but may even hurt by slowing down the athlete's overall time as well as basic speed.

All of this, for me, is circumstantial. If someone is too much speed trained, then a fair dose of aerobic strength/stamina/power work will impact either/both overall pacing or/and final kick. If someone lacks good 200/400m speed in the first place, more aerobic work will kill her/him off the event. Also its wise to consider what type of 800m runner she/he may be (sprinter or distance or versatile types). Thus, its the training and physiological histories of the runner that need to be taken into consideration.

Definitely, as you would have read in the sub 1:50 min 800m training thread, aerobic strength work is a crucial part of the overall training framework. Its just how much/often and when and who to apply this to that determines the impact on last 200m capability.

Other types of what I would term "multiple-effect" sessions like 'broken 800s' repeats and short reps at race pace with very short rests also come into play to help a runner hold form, buffer acidosis, and feel comfortable enough to even speed up or decelerate less late in the race when others are fading. Specific sessions where pace changes are executed within a medium/long rep can effect better gear change ability by simulating a race scenario.

All this added in to a good foundation of pure speed/power and solid and appropriate aerobic training will solicit a better response in the final 200m, I believe. Just know how this pans out for each individual, which is the toughest part, in my opinion.

Good Response.....bump

"To business: I recently read someone talking about the last 200 meters of the 800 having to do with how fast a person can run on the aerobic engine since they have exhausted the anaerobic system. My first question is do you believe this is true?"

This is absolutely untrue. Want proof? Take the fast 5k runner on the XC team and have him go out with the best 800m runner on the track team go out at race pace. It is likely that the 5k guy can hold on for the first 600. Who will win the last 200?

The 800m runner.

care to elaborate?

i think that would have more to do with specific training...the first 600 will be much tougher on the 5k guy....but he may be able to finish better if they both go out at their individual race paces

"Tebow Sucks" -- Your analogy is pretty flawed. Are we talking a 2:10 800m or 1:50 800m? Some 5k guys only have a 400m PR of around 53-55 sec. But you go on to say that the 800m guy will win. Well obviously, but that win would have nothing to do (hypothetically) with the true 800m runner having no aerobic power, but more of just simply winning off of raw speed. This of course does happen, but I think were talking about now Running Economy for the 5k runner. The 800m runner is used to going out in 55sec, the 5k....70's? Obviously the 800m runner will win. Perhaps a better analogy is put a 400.800 vs. a 800/1500... Then talk to me =) History has proven that more times then not the 800/1500 runner always wins... why? Well i'll let you think about it!

Anbessa

Anbessa, I agree with you as thats what I was hinting at as well. I would be interested to hear your opinion on the question and what you would do to improve this.

ps we are talking about 1:50, not 2:10.

To answer your question, I'd suggest something along the lines of workouts like 600m at 800 pace.. jog 200 meters in 45 sec. then 200m at 800 pace. Here, the workout itself isn't necessarily aerobic, but the rest is! You see alot of these allstar workouts, but theres 7-10 min rest or so sometimes. You need to learn to run to 600m feeling decently good, and feeling ready to make your final surge with 50-100m left. I think by doing workouts where your rest is a "quicker" 200m such as the one given here, your teaching your body that "cruise" technique to continue pressing on even when you are tired, not to mention 45 sec/200m is more aerobic then it is anaerobic.

The 1000's and tempo's you suggest are great, but I think (as Oldsub4 englightened me) that they are more preliminary runs in your earlier track season, basically giving you the fuel to do such workouts as posted above.

Anbessa

Wrong Anabessa. Read the question. Assuming that everything the OP says and understands about the 800 is correct. I'm not saying the alternative is correct just that he is wrong.

"I recently read someone talking about the last 200 meters of the 800 having to do with how fast a person can run on the aerobic engine since they have exhausted the anaerobic system. My first question is do you believe this is true?"

If at 800 race pace your anaerobic system is "exhausted" then surely both runners would have exhausted their "anaerobic system" but could still be neck and neck if 5k was all out.

Therefore if his above statement were true the 5k guy would win the last 200 meters.

For the record, I was simply trying to demonstrate things arent that simple.

dr. van nostren wrote:

I have read through this thread multiple times and have found alot of the information very helpful which is why I am asking for opinions from those guys but anyone is welcome.

To business: I recently read someone talking about the last 200 meters of the 800 having to do with how fast a person can run on the aerobic engine since they have exhausted the anaerobic system. My first question is do you believe this is true?

My second question is, do you think long steady runs, tempo work(tempo runs, 1000's, 800's, mile repeats etc) or another form of training is most effective to improve this?

Yes, the you are relying more and more on aerobic ATP as the race progresses.

And yes, tempo runs and interval sessions are the best way to train this system along with general mileage.

But also, as well as training the aerobic system, you must also consider that the nervous system has to be trained to improve fatigue resistance, and this is where training at race pace when you are tired is most effective.

weIlnow wrote:

But also, as well as training the aerobic system, you must also consider that the nervous system has to be trained to improve fatigue resistance, and this is where training at race pace when you are tired is most effective.

This is where I like Kiprotich, Snell and Coes training.

Kiprotich had some workouts like 8X200m @ 25-26 with less then 10 seconds of recovery, and 5X1000m in 2:50ish with the last 200m at race pace. This teaches the body to run at race pace while using the aerobic system more-like the last 200m of an 800m race. These workouts were only done after a generous helping of base training, of course.

Snell was known for his 100 mile weeks but the real genious of Lydiard was his hill workouts. The downhill strides were just as important as the hill bounding.

Coe did 800m reps downhill in around 1:50-1:55-a pace that was faster then 1500m race pace yet he could do more volume because metabolically it was probably around 3-5k effort but at 1500m pace mechanically-he was learning how to be relaxed at race pace.

weIlnow wrote:

But also, as well as training the aerobic system, you must also consider that the nervous system has to be trained to improve fatigue resistance, and this is where training at race pace when you are tired is most effective.

Nervous system should not be trained when tired (CNS breaking down). Best fatigue resistance training is old fashion aerobic training.

Very good post!

I like the example of Coe's 800 reps.

I have used these types of reps (not as long, though with HS kids) in the early season to "offset" possible mechanical changes from hill work (uphill) in the early season but mainly to add faster running without accumulating a lot of metabolic stress.

You are able to get a lot of kilometers without a huge amount of anaerobic work. I would caution to use a soft surface, however. We have a slightly graded "rails-to-trails" surface which is perfect for slightly downhill reps- nice and soft, very subtle grade.

You don't need a soft surface. The downhill Coe used had a very gentle grade, about 2%

The purpose is to run fast, so the surface is irrelevant, because you are aiming for a certain pace x distance, but you get used to the stress on your muscles quite quickly. The hardest part is the actual physical effort. Look how tired and hot Coe was when he did those reps.

From the old thread:

wellnow wrote:

foomiler, thanks for the link to Coe running on the Rivelin Valley Road:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FdPy_3AXTQ4&feature=related

What is interesting about those 6x800's with short recovery is that he is running slightly downhill with a following breeze:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=rivelin%20valley%20road&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

The session starts at an elevation of about 165m and drops to around 75m in just under 5k

On that day a warm south westerly helped him as it probably did on most of the other occasions over the previous 12-13 years.

Just think of that 12-13 years of doing that session?

I like the idea of that 600-200 session anbessa, i would almost be tempted to do something like 600@ race pace, and instead of just one more 200 at race pace i might do 3 or 4 at a slightly slower pace while keeping the jog in between to get even more of an aerobic stimulus while tired.

weIlnow wrote:

You don't need a soft surface. The downhill Coe used had a very gentle grade, about 2%

The purpose is to run fast, so the surface is irrelevant, because you are aiming for a certain pace x distance, but you get used to the stress on your muscles quite quickly. The hardest part is the actual physical effort. Look how tired and hot Coe was when he did those reps.

You might not necessarily need a soft running surface, but I don't think you can ever go wrong by being a little cautious with the little things.

I guess I just get a little freaked out about the extra pounding of downhill running...it's a couple of extra inches added to the stride cycle and you're running faster- all which lead to a little more impact shock.

bump