NYRR 8K... USA Champs? 72nd/59th street loop? Monti or anyone else?

I personally think that is a great suggestion, but probably too radical, considering you would have people doing the slalom through the 10 minute runners.

For sure NYRR has brought us some creative races (Backwards, Twosome, Alumni Challenge), however, I think we are going to see less and less of the creativity because it doesn't support the model of commodotizing a guaranteed race of 5,000 runners for sponsors, on an easy-to-manage loop. In other words, stand by for more "Australia Day 4M" (free Fosters?) and "Gotta Drink Milk 10K."

If you are only referring to an elite race, nevermind, I think they will continue to push the boundaries with regards to Elite events and hosting championship races, Mary has taken that to a new level. Your best bet is to get your ideas to your club representative for Club Council meetings. Those suggestions are listened to.

Well, the NYRR has the ability to limit field size.

The first time they did that course in 2007 it was just the USA 8K Champs (i.e. no open race).

Then in 2008 they added an open race (the Central Park Challenge). That was a pretty small field by NYRR standards (1700).

Then this year they went back to the same old 8k Course from 102 to 59th to 102, but the number of finishers was 4600.

Why don't they just limit the field size next year to 2000 and host it on that loop? The diversity would probably draw some more serious runners.

Or possibly host the summer's Club Champs race on that course since that is a smaller field.

There is certainly an opportunity at SOME point during the season to run it.

I know a little about this one.

The NYRR hosted the USATF Men's 8k Championships which was scheduled for a Saturday. The original course was the standard 5 mile /8k loop - starting on the west drive just north of the finish, running north to the 102 transverse, then back around (lower loop) to to the same finish as the ING NYC Marathon.

Unfortunately, we had a blizzard (in March)the night before making the course unusable for a competitive race. The NYRR decided to run the "non Championship section" (several thousand participants) as a untimed fun run and the 8k Championship the following day - Sunday. There was a great deal of snow on the ground that needed to be removed to be worthy of a Championship event.

The NYRR decided to go with a multiple loop course using the 72nd street transverse and the lower loop. This was only practical because there were less then 100 runners in the race with a spread of ablility of less then 5 minutes over 8k.

Late on Saturday morning, the NYRR attacked the snow filled course with dozens of starff and volunteers armed with shovels. Obviously it would have taken longer to do 8k of roads instead of the 2.7k loop. Within hourse the course was clear and I was able to accuartely measure the course.

Great idea for Club Champs, makes it a great spectator event, especially since the women/men are able to watch each other's races. I bet if the other clubs were on board it might have a fighting chance.

On limiting the field size, they are capping races at 5K, right? Doesn't seem like it would benefit the NYRR to set the cap so much lower. I guess if they doubled the entry fee maybe.

I do remember that snow storm and the events as you laid them out.

Having said that, surely the 2.7k loop would be fine for a race of 2000. If NYRR limits the size of the field for one race, we would have a great fast option in NYC for once.

The NYRR wants more of the better local guys to road race. One of the reasons more don't is that the same old slow courses are just that... the same old slow courses.

Having a race once a year that mixes up the course AND gives the sub 27:00 5M/8K guys a chance to PR has got to be nothing but good for the local running scene.

And yes, I do realize that sub 27:00 is not "fast" to all the wise-guys on here... but for a local race, its pretty good. As a 25:30 local guy, I would like to be able to PR in NYC and not have to go to a place like Spring Lake or elsewhere to try and lower my PR.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Club Champs being hosted on that course.

Its a small field with a good amount of spectators and its the fastest people in the city. Would be fun to see how fast some of the times were when the best are running against the best on that course. Those WTC and West Side guys would run insanely fast.

But think about how deep that race would be. There would probably be double the amount of people sub 26:00 (OK, maybe a little exaggeration here).

When is the next Club Council meeting? Where do you see the schedule?

NYCRunner2530 wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Club Champs being hosted on that course.

Its a small field with a good amount of spectators and its the fastest people in the city. Would be fun to see how fast some of the times were when the best are running against the best on that course. Those WTC and West Side guys would run insanely fast.

But think about how deep that race would be. There would probably be double the amount of people sub 26:00 (OK, maybe a little exaggeration here).

When is the next Club Council meeting? Where do you see the schedule?

Not a chance. The difference in pace between the fastest (23:13 for men, 27:28 for women) and the slowest (1:18:16 for men, 1:16:22 for women) means that the fastest runners would hit a brick wall of plodders on the 2nd lap.

Unless, of course, NYRR wants to start lapping people out of the race, in which case I fully support anyone who can't dip under 46:30 for the men or 55:00 for the women getting yanked off the course with a gigantic fish hook.

bump... does anyone know how the 72/59 (fast) version of the course compares to the 102/59 (slower) version used in the non championship races? I am a 24:45 8k guy and looking to run this race this spring and was wondering how much slower it is compared to both the US 8k course and a flat 8k course

I can't give a real scientific answer to this, but it's really not that much slower, you will still break 25:00. Lower loop is faster, but not fast. Personally, I like the Tavern on the Green start/finish (Father's Day course). You can hit the west side hill when your legs are fresh then have 2 pretty good downhills, including Cat Hill, and a fast finishing mile.

Cupcake Nation wrote:

I can't give a real scientific answer to this, but it's really not that much slower, you will still break 25:00. Lower loop is faster, but not fast. Personally, I like the Tavern on the Green start/finish (Father's Day course). You can hit the west side hill when your legs are fresh then have 2 pretty good downhills, including Cat Hill, and a fast finishing mile.

My PR is from a basically pancake flat 8k course. So based on your post it seems that the course is significantly slower than a flat course correct?

I think any race in CP is slow - but I'm weak on the hills so I am biased. As for how slow...who the heck knows. For me - around 7 seconds per mile over 5 miles.

But elites of course slow far less than I do.

I was about to say "without a doubt," and then I pulled up these comparisons. Look below for 2002-2004 8K Champs, all held in CP but maybe not on the same loop, all with similar fields running very similar times. In 2005 they moved to what I recall was a flat course on Randall's Island which started and finished with a lap on the track at Icahn Stadium, I believe they did the track mid-race too. I recall the course was close to flat yet the times are slower. Maybe it was just a very tactical race, otherwise race conditions were good.

2002 8K Champs-Central Park

1.Broe 22:26

2.Browne 22:29

3.Fam 22:30

4.Abdi 22:42

5.Downin 22:53

2003 8K Champs-Central Park

1.Meb 22:28

2.Johnson 22:39

3.Abdi 22:42

4.Broe 22:47

5.Downin 22:49

2004 8K Champs-Central Park

1.Meb 22:16

2.Fam 22:26

3.Asmerom 22:29

4.Kikpatrick 22:32

5.Johnson 22:33

2005 8K Champs-Randalls Island

1.Torres 22:47

2.Abdi 22:56

3.Fam 23:02

4.Shay 23:05

5.King 23:07

I still think CP is a far tougher course, but maybe not.