Women's training and recovery thread - 9/20/09

Humbled: my fingers remain crossed for you and your recovery.

As for me, slightly better week. I continue to struggle to determine what’s going on with my breathing. Essentially, when I’m running hard I feel like I’m aerobically undertrained (which I’m fairly sure isn’t the case), with my legs much stronger than my lungs. After any hard run, I develop flulike symptoms, including headache, chills, mild sore throat, and a cough.

After a bit of self-analysis, reviewing my past training logs, talking with my doctor, and talking with others with allergies/asthma, it does seem that my breathing issues are allergy/asthma related (and that the stress of pushing hard under these conditions causes the flu-like symptoms). I’m now playing with different meds (both OTC and prescription) in hopes of figuring out something that will allow me to perform at full capacity this fall. In the meantime, I’ll continue to run and race, and just accept slower times.

I did run a 5K this past Saturday, doing it as a tempo with the goal of having fun. Ended up running 20:36 (3 miles at tempo effort, averaging out to 6:40, and then a practice kick at 5:28 pace, which was reassuring). 20:36 ended up being good enough for the win, so that was fun too! I'm feeling a bit more positive about my running than I was last week, though I'm still frustrated.

Full week looked like this:

Monday: 7 miles very easy outside (8:24 pace), plus weights

Tuesday: 13.5 miles outside, most of it easy, but a 3.3 mile tempo “by feel” on flat path (pace later determined to be 6:29 – a bit of a surprise, and way faster than I would expect – I used G-maps and remapped multiple times to check the distance. Dunno. Can’t explain it).

Wednesday: 12.5 miles total. In the morning, 8.5 miles very easy outside (8:35) plus weights. In the evening, 3 miles very easy outside (8:05 pace), plus yoga.

Thursday: 13 miles outside, including 8 mile progression run – starting at 8:25 for the first mile, and finishing with 6:47 for the last. Also 10 hill sprints of 14 seconds each up hill of 17% incline.

Friday: Felt like I needed a break, so no running. Walked about 3 miles.

Saturday: Total of 13 miles, including warm-up, 5K race at tempo effort (6:38), cooldown, and later jogging of 4 miles very easy on treadmill. Also yoga class.

Sunday: 12 miles outside very easy (8:33 pace).

Hi Gang-

Humbled, sorry to hear that you are still having problems. That really sucks. I hope you get to run in the fall weather very soon.

DW - Have you had your blood checked? When I was anemic I was super short of breath all the time. I just remembered that. Glad to see you are still getting some good running in, but maybe it could be worth getting bloodwork done.

I had a good week of 66 miles with a 23 mile long run, a few MP-ish mile repeats (recovering from half last week), and am now headed into taper time. I am doing a 3-week taper that still keeps speed workouts. I am excited for Chicago but nervous, of course. I hope for good weather and that all the work I've done is enough!

Have a good week, all. Wishing quick recoveries to those who are having trouble and good runs to all.

Humbled - I agree about running in fall. I think it's probably my favorite time of year! I hope you can get back to running soon.

Darkwave & cats - sounds like the running is going well. DW, hopefully you'll get the breathing thing figured out. I've had several times lately where my breathing doesn't feel quite right when I run (seem to be breathing harder than I should), but it doesn't seem as severe as yours. I think mine is allergies.

As for my week...well it was a bit of a rough week again. After doing the 22 miler last saturday my legs were pretty dead all week and the groin injuries were flared up again. This is what happened the week after my 20 miler too, so I was more prepared for it this time. So I took a couple days off, did some cross training, etc. At this point I figure listening to my body, getting the legs to feel fresh, and getting as painfree as possible is more important than hitting a pre-determined mileage.

Monday - 3 miles very easy (9:40 pace). My legs weren't moving very well 2 days after that 22 miler. Very slow shakeout run. Originally planned to do 5, but realized there was no point in pushing through that.

Tuesday - off. I had been having the groin pain when walking and had some limping so I wanted to rest it until that went away. (By the way, it's now mostly the right side that's giving me problems instead of the left).

Wednesday - off. Still feeling the same, so took another day off. Could see some signs of improvement so I knew I'd be ok by the end of the week.

Thursday - 60 min elliptical. Thought about running but decided to give it one more day. I should also point out that I had a root canal in the morning and then went and did this workout.

Friday - 5 easy (9:07 pace). Some limping at the beginning and a little pain, but made it through an easy run. Legs still a little dead.

Saturday - 5 easy (8:45 pace). A little better today - less pain/limping. Was pretty tired and hungry going into the run (ran after work). Don't feel like I have much in the legs right now, but ran a decent pace. Cut the run a couple miles shorter than planned.

Sunday - 12.5 (8:43 pace). Best the leg (injuries) has felt all week. Pretty much no limping at the beginning and less pain. Didn't run as fast as would have liked. Wanted to do some of the run at MP, but after running miles 3 & 4 at 8:20 pace I decided I was too tired to do that today so I slowed it down. Breathing felt off today too (probably allergies). Again, I think I'm still not 100% recovered from the 22 miler, plus I had a couple days where I didn't get enough sleep. But overall a decent run.

Total Miles: 25.5 (was hoping to be 30-35, but again, I'm not too worried).

The marathon is 2 weeks away. I'll probably hit around 25 miles again this week, but I'll probably do it in 5 runs instead of 4 (depending on the groin injuries). Part of me worries that I'm not doing enough, but then I realize that I've done more training for this marathon than any of my previous marathons (even while dealing with this injury!), so I may actually need more of a taper. So I'm trying to listen to my body and hope I'm doing the right things. I've definitely been tired, which makes easy runs seem hard, which makes me start doubting things. But I try to remember that this usually happens, and with a couple weeks of easy running, I should get that freshness back in the legs. I also plan to really focus on sleeping, staying hydrated, etc for the next 2 weeks.

humbled - good luck with the biking.

darkwave - winning a 5K with breathing problems - congratulations. hope you get to the bottom of this.

WABTC - keep up the good work - chicago is right around the corner.

ABQ-keep a positive attitude.

my week: sunday swim 2800 M

monday-swim 2800 M, weights

tuesday - elliptical - 1 hour

wed. swim 3000 M. get an MrI ART treatment

thurs. aqua jog 1 hour

friday - swim 2550M

saturday - masters swim 3000M

so the mri showed very mild tenonosis. appt. with podiatrist tomorrow. i am wondering if the elliptical is an irritant. tendonosis v. tendonitis - what is the treatment. i get the feeling that achilles stuff is trial and error and what works for one might not work for another. i wish i knew if the elliptical or the aqua jogging is an irritant. so many questions and no real direction.

do people get over this?????

going on week 6 of no running. blah

thanks ladies.

humbled - good luck with the biking.

darkwave - winning a 5K with breathing problems - congratulations. hope you get to the bottom of this.

WABTC - keep up the good work - chicago is right around the corner.

ABQ-keep a positive attitude.

my week: sunday swim 2800 M

monday-swim 2800 M, weights

tuesday - elliptical - 1 hour

wed. swim 3000 M. get an MrI ART treatment

thurs. aqua jog 1 hour

friday - swim 2550M

saturday - masters swim 3000M

so the mri showed very mild tenonosis. appt. with podiatrist tomorrow. i am wondering if the elliptical is an irritant. tendonosis v. tendonitis - what is the treatment. i get the feeling that achilles stuff is trial and error and what works for one might not work for another. i wish i knew if the elliptical or the aqua jogging is an irritant. so many questions and no real direction.

do people get over this?????

going on week 6 of no running. blah

thanks ladies.

humbled - good luck with the biking.

darkwave - winning a 5K with breathing problems - congratulations. hope you get to the bottom of this.

WABTC - keep up the good work - chicago is right around the corner.

ABQ-keep a positive attitude.

my week: sunday swim 2800 M

monday-swim 2800 M, weights

tuesday - elliptical - 1 hour

wed. swim 3000 M. get an MrI ART treatment

thurs. aqua jog 1 hour

friday - swim 2550M

saturday - masters swim 3000M

so the mri showed very mild tenonosis. appt. with podiatrist tomorrow. i am wondering if the elliptical is an irritant. tendonosis v. tendonitis - what is the treatment. i get the feeling that achilles stuff is trial and error and what works for one might not work for another. i wish i knew if the elliptical or the aqua jogging is an irritant. so many questions and no real direction.

do people get over this?????

going on week 6 of no running. blah

thanks ladies.

Here's to healing up everyone!

Every hear of the Stanford Marshmallow Study?

Stanford University psychology researcher Michael Mischel demonstrated how important self-discipline (the ability to delay immediate gratifiction in exchange for long term goal achievement) is to lifelong success? In a longitudinal study which began in the 1960s, he offered hungry 4-year-olds a marshmallow, but told them that if they could wait for the experimenter to return after running an errand, they could have two marshmallows.

Those who could wait the fifteen or twenty minutes for the experimenter to return would be demonstrating the ability to delay gratification and control impulse.

About one-third of of the children grabbed the single marshmallow right away while some waited a little longer, and about one-third were able to wait 15 or 20 minutes for the researcher to return.

Years later when the children graduated from school, the differences between the two groups were dramatic: the resisters were more positive, persistent in the face of difficulties, and able to delay gratification in pursuit of their goals. They had the habits of successful people which resulted in more successful marriages, higher incomes, greater career satisfaction, better health, and more fulfilling lives than most of the population.

Those having grabbed the marshmallow were more stubborn and indecisive, mistrustful, less self-confident, and still could not put off gratification. This impulse followed them throughout their lives and resulted in unsucessful marriages, low job satisfaction and income, poor health, and frustrating lives.

Now I'm not sure I believe all this! What happened to living in the moment - going for it when the chance is there? I'm interested in hearing what you women say about this....

This was on my mind this weekend. I ran a trail race after 7 years of no racing. I was up against some pretty awesome competition, but in my favor was - I have run this trail for 20 years and I know it like the back of my hand!

There are spots where you can run and let it fly, and spots where you have to granny shuffle because of the terrain, the sharp cuts, etc.

Knowing that...I was the impulsive marshmallow girl, and when I could get clear run of the marshmallow, I ran as hard as I could. When the treacherous parts came, I ran it conservatively (you know me and falling go hand in hand!).

All the while, on the open parts I knew there was a chance the final mile and a half (it was 20k overall) would be hell, as it was all UPHILL! But I shoved that damn marshmallow in my mouth whenever I could, I used my capital when it spent well, there was no tomorrow!

Well, the final mile was hell hell, and I saw a friend standing there, who enjoyed laughing at me while I blurted out a couple of four letter words.....my rusty time overall was satisfactory, I won the master's, I finished very high overall males and females. My impulsive racing instincts were there. I've never been a patient runner, I've always been the one stuffing in the marshmallow while the bigger kids were patient....

I've waited a long time to race, I'm no spring chicken these days - no way I was going to waste all that instant gratification - I was taking what I could when I could. The day was beautiful and glorious and who says that being impulsive doesn't pay off?

Greetings Chicas, sorry to learn you had a zero week there Humbled, you are smart not to rush things I spent 4 yrs trying to do that and the body responds when it is ready.. not always on my time table.

Darkwave I have to say get a Serum Ferritin (stored iron) blood test which you may have seen discussed on here before. When I first got to SC in April I could hardly breathe when out running and thought well, it is the higher humidity.. then my legs were trudgey and heavy and finally I got some blood work done. My iron stores were at 12... endurance runners females should be closer to 40.... so, I have been on iron ever since and don't struggle with heavy legs and breathing unless I am really pushing it and that is normal of course.

Another solid week here at 64 miles with a day off to do my hour of power pool run with 60secs hard 60 secs recovery 20 reps.

Did several runs of 8 miles in the AM and 5 in the PM and a tempo paced 5 miler at 7min pace mid week, struggled abit on that since it was much warmer than the week before...

Decided to do the Dam 10km this Saturday likely as a tempo effort to get a feel for where I am fitness wise, I am already nervous/excited about it.

Finished off the week with a 16 miler on rolling country roads and averaged 7:50 pace which was a surprise 2 hrs and 5 mins for the whole thing.

Feeling a bit knackered today and plan to head to the pool shortly for my run there and will drop the miles this week

in order to have fresher legs for the 10km.

Here's hoping things buck up for those struggling and everyone enjoys a happy and healthy week...

WATC: Good week, and fingers crossed for Chicago!

A4BQ: At this point, the hay's in the barn for your race, so I really believe the best thing you can do is rest when your body tells you to.

HSB: I'm sorry you're having such a tough time. I do agree that it's different for each person, but people do get over it.

16X: I'll keep the marshmallow story in mind -- I definitely like to go out fast (too fast). Great race, and congrats!!!

Sarah: I may get another test. Back in December, my serum ferritin was 88, but I've run a lot of miles (but also eaten a lot of steak) between now and then.

I'm leaning towards it being allergies because:

1) One of the most notable aspects of this is a bad cough that I get for 24 hours after any hard run or race. I'm not sure iron issues would evince a cough.

2) my training log shows a similar "off/aerobically unfit" period last fall. Last fall, I attributed it to several training setback I had that summer. But it may not have been that at all.

I did try Claritin-D for the first time this morning, and had one of my best runs in a few weeks. Lungs didn't feel perfect, but did feel much, much better. A single day is too soon to draw conclusions, but there is some hope.

Good luck on your 10K!

As a developmental psychology major, I can definitely comment on the marshmallow test. I think of it not so much as applying to your race, 16x, but as maybe equivalent to running a race when you're injured just because you've been targeting it, and setting yourself back months in the process. I am certainly guilty of that! It's not about avoiding risk, but just thinking things through and having some self-control. I hope everyone's running/recovering goes well this week!

I'm late to the party and rushing to leave already. Trying to do a thousand things before some travel.

So, for now, a link:

http://raceslikeagirl.com/2009/09/21/fall-training-week-2-2/

And a wish for speedy resolutions to all chronic and emerging issues. Even though I seem to be experiencing some problems adapting to my new training plan, I'm still enormously grateful that I can still train.

here's some good news to offer hope to humbled and others on the injured list: i got in three runs this past week -- my first since june 10. the tibia didn't speak up even a little bit, and the ankle ligament only felt twingey now and then, but never to the point of real pain. i need to stay on soft surfaces, i can't yet handle "real" trails, and i'm slow as molasses, but i'm quite happy to be running again. yesterday i did 9 miles. i'm hoping that every-other-day runs for the coming week or two will get my legs used to impact again i'll be able to start building mileage and picking up the pace now and then.

a comment about iron and serum ferritin. when i met with my sports doc to follow up on my anemia (and injuries) and asked him about my SF level of 22 (up from sub-10 in june), he said that was plenty high and that he used SF primarily as a guide when the hematocrit and red blood cell count is low in the following manner: he makes sure that SF isn't too HIGH, because then iron supplementation would be counterindicated. i guess everyone has her/his own baseline SF level. i'm comfortably convinced that my iron level is what it should be now, as evidenced by a strong pace at the century cycling event i did a week ago (mean speed 17.5 mph).

here's wishing everyone good healing, smart marshmallow consumption, and enjoyment of the joys of early fall -- preferably running, of course, but also cycling, hiking, etc., if that's all the body can manage.

bad news. went to the podiatrist today with my mri and tale of 5 weeks of no running and 5 weeks of ART and graston treatment. he felt the achilles, and said there was a lump there. he is a big runner and he kept saying that i had to let it calm down and wear a boot. from my research i learned that tendonosis is NOT inflammation but a degeneration of the tendon (mine was "very mild" from the mri dx). he said that nothing i have been doing has worked - the protocol of graston, ART, eccentric heel drops, ice, and no running. it was time to give the tendon a rest. he wasn't specific about the time - i agreed on seeing him back on oct. 12. no swimming, aqua jogging --- nothing. no cross training.

of course the podiatrist cannot give me a guaranty or anything. i guess what else would i expect if i chose to see a podiatrist.

boy am i down in the dumps. sometimes i think a stress fracture is better than this kind of dx.

you know what is going through my mind - that if you took an mri of people in their 50s of their back of achilles tendons - 48 would have degeneration but maybe 5 would have pain - why do the rest of the people not have pain?

i am not sure what other recourse i have now.

sorry for the vent.

wow, hsb, sorry to hear that. to answer your question (why the remainder don't have pain), i expect because it'd be because they don't do much with their achilles' tendons, whereas those of us here certainly do. during the week when i first strained my ankle ligament, i got my frustration out by doing core work, upper body weights (while seated), and stretched a bunch. while it didn't make up for being stuck inside and being nonaerobic, it did keep me out of the loony bin.

i think i might have mentioned earlier that some people i know have had good success with their achilles problems by turning to chinese acupuncture. it seems to be one of those treatments that either you receive nearly immediate positive results -- or not. perhaps it's something to consider.

hang in there.

hsb, can you swim with a pull buoy and not push off the wall? That should allow the tendon to rest. Also, on the acupuncture front, it doesn't have immediate results, but I am convinced it speeds the healing process (have done it twice for two Achilles injuries). My insurance covered part of it this time around too. Trust me though, the Achilles does respond to rest--that is why it is an injury I dread.

Interesting marshmallow study. That was my problem with my early running days. I think most runners in general go through this stage. We expect PRs every race and cannot be told to rest. Each time I was injured, I became impatient and rushed things. Now I'm the complete opposite. I might be delaying a bit too much.

But I am finally out of my slogging rut, training for a half in December. I hope to stay healthy, run a decent time and then train for a spring marathon (would be my first marathon).

I mentioned that crappy 5 mile race the other week and thought I didn't want to race again after that. Well I changed my mind. I know the only way to make progress is to take risks. So I ran a 5k this weekend and it actually went okay. I ran a new "old lady PR," but could tell I lack speed. It was still fun to get out and race, and my mile splits were consistent.

I had a few months off with achilles problems. The only training I could do was the type of swimming as explained above by Becky. You have to let it settle and stop aggravating it.

thanks ladies. i have been swimming with a pull buoy and aqua jogging for the past 5+ weeks. i think the podiatrist cut that out was because we had to change what i was doing; it wasn't working. the podiatrist seemed to agree with "working" saying i had to stop aggravating it. i didn't think swimming nor aqua jogging did . . . . .

i will give this 2 weeks in the boot and then reasses. it sucks big time. i will look into acupuncture as well.

sorry for the downer; i know this too shall pass. it is nice to hear from other runners though.

HSB: just wanted to add my sympathy for your frustration.

Congrats on the "old lady" PR - txRUNNERgirl!

NLS: glad you're running again!