Daniels' VDot and Racing Preferences

The best way to use it is by ignoring it.

Just go out and run.

Your discrepancies in VDOT makes sense with your Middle Distance Background. Although the previous poster is wrong (you shouldnt ignore advice from a man who has made his life studying distance development), the answer may lie more in steady mileage for sometime. More of a Hadd/Lydiard approach for an extended stretch.

When you start doing workouts I think it would be best to establish your VDOT from a recent 5K or longer.

Thanks for the response and advice. I've never run a lot of mileage, topping out around 60 though not very consistently... I plan on working back up to that this fall and starting to build up the threshhold running. I know the Hadd approach with progressively higher mileage and steady running can be helpful for runners with weak correlations in relative race times as distances increase, and perhaps a good dose of this training would help me out, although I'd like to stay in touch with the middle distance end of things and not lose that. I've just never been strong over longer distances, and feel that developing a better ability to race well over distance would do wonders for my ability in shorter races. I see the threshhold run as the key along with some more mileage, and just am not sure whether to approach it based on my weaker 5 km ability, or whether to work towards the threshhold pace that correlates with my stronger races.

Are you a younger guy? Sometimes, especially for YOUNG middle distance runners, there is a great discrepancy between their 1500m and 5000m times (relative to a standard VDOT value). This is a result of two things:

1) They are simply better at the 1500m than the 5000m

2) They have focused on middle-distance speed in lieu of long-distance endurance

So, since the anaerobic threshold is primarily associated with your aerobic fitness, and since you have neglected it (well, that might be a little harsh, but you know what I mean), your AnT will be lower than "expected" for your 1500m fitness level. Use your (slower) 5k time as a GUIDELINE for running threshold workouts. Remember, threshold is primarily a FEELING, not a pace writ in stone! Figure out what threshold effort feels like, and then simply observe your times for your cruise interval or anaerobic threshold run workouts. Gradually, as your mileage increases and your aerobic fitness catches up with your middle-distance prowess, your threshold will approach the level of your 1500m. Be aware that you may NEVER be able to run Daniels' predicted threshold pace for your current 1500m PR if you are simply better at the shorter distances. Your body is just more efficient and comfortable at 1500m pace vs. AnT pace, which is roughly 10mi/15k pace.

Stout wrote:

The best way to use it is by ignoring it.

Just go out and run.

Actually your first step should be to ignore Stout

Ah, and jtupper = J. Daniels, in case 4:10 is new to this board...

Link to a recent Jack Daniels coaching seminar. In first 3-4 videos or so, he explains how VDOT was developed and how best to apply it to training.

Daniels is an idiot.

I've been awake about 28 hours and am too tired to look at the links posted, so, forgive me if one contains this: Daniels himself said this is a common scenario in a recent thread. He noted to take the two known VDot's and scale the paces accordingly. So, in the case of the 1500, stick at 67. Taking the middle distance between the two (3000m), he would suggest shoot for a VDot of 64, and keep working on the 5k pace of 61. Continuing that, you might try doing T workouts at 58-61, depending on what you feel helps.

Thanks to everyone for the helpful info and links. It would seem to make a lot of sense to modify things so that interval and repetition paces, for example, might be geared towards the shorter race of 1500m where I have the higher vdot, vs using the threshhold pace associated with the lower vdot that I have for 5 km... this would definitely be manageable, and then perhaps the goal over time would be to have those vdots align more closely.

Would it be best to stick to the lower vdot for estimating recovery pace, particularly if aiming at increasing mileage?

Thanks again.

No fair; you said you would keep that to yourself. Now I can't let you know any more inside info

I could guess, but, that's all it would be. Give him a chance. He occasionally posts when he has time. He'll most likely see the thread and give you the info you need. If you don't get a reply in a day or two and the thread sinks, bump it once or twice. If all else fails in a week or two, just email him. He is remarkably nice and helpful for such a well-known figure.

Also, the thread about the MD guy a few posts up was the one I was referring to by the way.

Another suggestion for you while you are getting the aerobic benefit of threshold training. To maintain the speed that you reffered to earlier you might try a 200 meter workout every once in a while. They are short enough that you can get your turnover without incurring much if any oxygen debt. Be sure to jog in between them in a 1 to 1 ratio or even more rest if neccesary. You can actually increase your oxygen delivery system while getting some speed in there too. It isn't race specific but it might keep you going with the threshold training knowing that you get to treat yourself every once in a while with a little bit of your usual fare.