Why do 800 intervals @ 5k pace with 3min jog recovery?

People can understand 2 laps. And many inexperienced runners don't handle longer intervals well.

I agree with the time thing. I have my runners do different length intervals based on their ability. When we work VO2, the intervals usually are from 2:30 to 4:30 depnding on how difficult we want the workout to be. (2:30 would be early in the training cycle for us or very late in the cycle while we are just trying to maintain fitness and get some freshness back in the legs.)

I train myself under the Daniels program, and I use Daniels for my high school kids as well. I think you seeing this as an ineffective workout is wrong. First, it only takes 2 minutes to the area where you are stressing your V02 max on the first interval. On subsequent intervals, you will achieve it much faster. Secondly, why not adjust the recovery? If your 5k pace is .. say .. 2:34/800m, why not just take about 2:30 rest before the next rep? Maybe even work down to 2 min rest after that becomes easier.

5 minutes is the upper limit for Daniels' V02. IMHO, 5 minutes is a long time to spend at 3k-5k pace for 4-5 miles . This is especially true if you have some immediate race you'd like to run well at. I do 1200ms, miles, things like that, when time permits for a few hard workouts. 800m-1000m seem to the sweet spot for many people.

Those were my thoughts: they expilcitly dictate the 3min recovery jog, which just seems too much.

According to JD, mile repeats would be too long for a lot of runners and 1200m seem to be perfect for many. But how many programs have you seen that recommends 1200ms? Far, far fewer than 800s....

Nutella wrote:

Those were my thoughts: they expilcitly dictate the 3min recovery jog, which just seems too much.

According to JD, mile repeats would be too long for a lot of runners and 1200m seem to be perfect for many. But how many programs have you seen that recommends 1200ms? Far, far fewer than 800s....

I agree about adjusting workouts to specific athletes...depending on their ability and the time you have to commit to them, I have done and you might have 4 groups of athletes doing sets of 800's, 1000's, 1200's and 1600's (never bothered with 1400's) all at the same time.

As for the 3 minute recovery, doesn't Joe Vigil also use 3 minute recovery with A LOT of his intervals and repeats?

for what it is worth, we do 6 x 3min @5k pace w/ 3 min recovery. Makes it easy since all the kids are at different levels so all can start and stop at same time. Goal is to go 1 step further each 3 min on.

3 minutes rest after an 800 at 5k pace seems absurd to me. That is full recovery for any decently trained runner. Either the repeats need to be faster or the rest shorter. I see very little benefit to either speed or strength.

Because most smart coaches and athletes don't give a crap about time spent at VO2max...

Why do 800s at 5k pace? specific endurance if you are training for a 5k. Support if you are training for a 1500. Speed, if you are training for a 10k.

3min isn't full recovery even if you are jogging...

Also, it might make lots of sense to start with 3min rest and work down as the season progresses, but that concept generally escapes most of letsrun's message board coaches.

what??? wrote:

Because most smart coaches and athletes don't give a crap about time spent at VO2max...

Why do 800s at 5k pace? specific endurance if you are training for a 5k. Support if you are training for a 1500. Speed, if you are training for a 10k.

3min isn't full recovery even if you are jogging...

Also, it might make lots of sense to start with 3min rest and work down as the season progresses, but that concept generally escapes most of letsrun's message board coaches.

Well, if you run at present 5k pace things would take care of themselves, right? Point of season wouldn't matter. There is very little endurance benefit doing that workout if training for a 5k,and it is hardly speed for a 10k. Support fo a 1500 runner? No way. If you can't fully recover in 3 minutes after an 800 at 5k pace, then you're not as fast at 5k as you think.

Ya, I mean what athletes would take THAT much rest for an 800 at 5k pace...

I'd suggest you look at some of Canova's training and see the use of 3min rests or even 4 or 5 or 6....

See the problem is you are thinking of the training as if it were the race itself, instead of seeing the training as the way to race well. Just because you can run 5x800m with 1:30 rest at 5k pace doesn't mean you should.

How is it not speed for a 10k to run at 5k pace? It's an aerobic workout for a 1500 runner. Similarly to how most people use say a 4mi tempo run for a 5k runner. A 1500m runner would get similar aerobic support from doing work at 5k pace in a relaxed way.

what??? wrote:

Ya, I mean what athletes would take THAT much rest for an 800 at 5k pace...

I'd suggest you look at some of Canova's training and see the use of 3min rests or even 4 or 5 or 6....

See the problem is you are thinking of the training as if it were the race itself, instead of seeing the training as the way to race well. Just because you can run 5x800m with 1:30 rest at 5k pace doesn't mean you should.

How is it not speed for a 10k to run at 5k pace? It's an aerobic workout for a 1500 runner. Similarly to how most people use say a 4mi tempo run for a 5k runner. A 1500m runner would get similar aerobic support from doing work at 5k pace in a relaxed way.

It's not aerobic work for a 1500 runner because it is too short with way too much rest. How you can compare the benefits of a four mile tempo run for a 5k runner with running 800s at 5k pace with 3 minutes rest for a 1500 runner escapes me. I agree 10k runners should run at 5k pace, but not 800s with 3 minutes rest.

GermanRunnerX wrote:

For a halfway decent runner and given that I trust JD that VO2max starts at 2mins, that leaves about half a minute of VO2max per repetition.

that is a totally not important criteria.

Some of you guys are acting like 3min is an eternity.

What's wrong with cutting the rest as you get fitter? So for a 5k guy's first session, he runs 6x8 with 3min jog. Easy! Then works up to 8x8 with 3min. Then 8x8 with 2. Then 8x8 with 1, and now you're ready to rock a 5k race.

Not every workout is a race simulation. Nor is every workout an island unto itself- in the context of a 100mi training week with two other workouts, using 3min rest instead of 90sec could be the difference between overreaching and training optimally. Workouts shouldn't be races.

Because both a 4mi tempo and running at 5k pace serve similar purposes for each different set of a runner.

5k pace is roughly connected to the same degree to 1500 pace as a tempo run would be for a 5k or 10k runner (of course depending on the tempo pace).

They both serve the purpose of aerobic support. The 1500m runner needs a faster aerobic support due to the nature of his event and also most likely his physiological makeup.

Working on endurance for a 1500m runner is going to be entirely different for a 1500m runner with a fiber type tending more towards FT, than a 10k runner with primarily ST fibers.

3min rest if fine. I might prefer to work that down to 2min rest or a slow 200m jog after a while but to begin with or even as a maintenance workout when I just want to tune up the aerobic support of the runner during the season, 3min rest is fine.

Get out of this time spent at VO2max crap.

CraigMac4h wrote:

Some of you guys are acting like 3min is an eternity.

What's wrong with cutting the rest as you get fitter? So for a 5k guy's first session, he runs 6x8 with 3min jog. Easy! Then works up to 8x8 with 3min. Then 8x8 with 2. Then 8x8 with 1, and now you're ready to rock a 5k race.

Not every workout is a race simulation. Nor is every workout an island unto itself- in the context of a 100mi training week with two other workouts, using 3min rest instead of 90sec could be the difference between overreaching and training optimally. Workouts shouldn't be races.

There is intelligent coaching on this board...nice post.

I can 6.25x800m with zero rest at 5k pace.

Please clarify:

If the athletes are running 8x8 with 3 min rest at 5k pace and then you decrease the rest as they get fitter then 800's will also get faster by definition of "fitter", no? So you are decreasing the rest and increasing the pace.

Or in your example, are the intervals not "pace" specific?

I have to agree with ante up but probably for different reasons. 6x800 at 5k pace with 3 min rest is a bad workout. It's a staple among HS coaches, but it's only good use is to accustom novice runners to interval work.

Kids when given 3 min rest will be far too likely to run each interval hard. Over ambitious coaches and athletes will see to it that the intervals are not 5k pace, but likely faster. In each interval the kids will go into oxygen debt and the recover to various degrees. In the end the time spent at oxygen will tax the them more then necessary without as ante up has said spending very much time at v02max (whatever that is).

CraigMac4h wrote:

Some of you guys are acting like 3min is an eternity.

What's wrong with cutting the rest as you get fitter? So for a 5k guy's first session, he runs 6x8 with 3min jog. Easy! Then works up to 8x8 with 3min. Then 8x8 with 2. Then 8x8 with 1, and now you're ready to rock a 5k race.

Not every workout is a race simulation. Nor is every workout an island unto itself- in the context of a 100mi training week with two other workouts, using 3min rest instead of 90sec could be the difference between overreaching and training optimally. Workouts shouldn't be races.

If you're doing 100 miles with two other workouts, then why even bother? You'd be better off just running easy with some strides. I also don't buy the logic that you start with more rest early season and work toward less.As you get in better shape the time for each repeat will get faster but the rest stays constant, that way you can judge progress. I would never advocate more than two minutes rest for 800s at 5k pace.

This thread is silly. At the end of the day, it's not going to matter whether your 5k pace intervals were 800s, 1000s, 1200s, or 1600s.

777 wrote:

This thread is silly. At the end of the day, it's not going to matter whether your 5k pace intervals were 800s, 1000s, 1200s, or 1600s.

No, but the rest interval will. They sort of depend on each other.