I was observing a workout in Southern California where a girls team was running 2 sets of 15x400 w/ 1 minute rest in between and 4 minutes in between sets.
This seems like quite a bit for high schoolers... how many high schoolers do you think run this type of workout?
I think that is way too much, especially for girls, unless the 400s were at threshold pace on a trail or something, and even that would be a crappy workout.
I did as many as 20x400m @ between 1600 and 3200 pace with one lap jog recovery when I was in high school, and this was when I was running about 75mpw. Looking back, I think it was too much, especially on a track. Running around in circles that many times every week probably isn't good for your lower legs and hip alignment.
I don't know how fast the reps were, but they couldn't have been very fast. There's no way HS girls (or most anyone) could put in 12k of quality work, unless it was threshold pace or only slightly faster. I would say it's a pretty poor workout all around, but that's just me.
You don't have or give enough information to answer your question.
Is 7.5 miles too far for some high school girl to run. Of course not, it depends on their weekly mileage. And it depends on the specific of the workout. What pace was this workout done at compared to their vVO2 Max. If it was greater than 95% of their vVO2 max than definately I think its too much regardless of weekly mileage. But if they were done at less than 95% of their vVO2 Max (say 90-92%) it may be OK for some advanced girls. Depends on what they are working on.
It could very well be a lactate threshold or aerobic threshold workout were they start with 30 x 400 and then next time they do 15 x 800 and then the next time 10 x 1200 then 7.5 x 1600 and evenutally its 7.5 mile tempo run. I don't know that I'd do it that way but I've seen coaches approach it that way.
Try not judging other runners/coaches workouts without knowing the specifics or intent, its a bad idea.
I did 24 x 400 with 1 minute rest in high school. It took a long time but wasn't the most difficult workout I had ever done. I think I could have definitely done 6 more. However, that does seem like quite a bit for most girls teams to be doing.
Regardless of the pace, it just sounds terribly boring. I'm sure there's a better way to get the same result w/o the monotony.
In my view it's bad workout simply due to the boredom factor.
The pace really matters. Obviously they wouldn't even be able to do that workout at race pace. The coach might've been trying to get in alot of threshold miles without taxing them too much.
No way wrote:
he coach might've been trying to get in alot of threshold miles without taxing them too much.
Call me crazy, but why not have them do a threshold run then?
The real question is it working for them? Then if they are running fast and kicking but then yes a good workout. They are obviously doing something right. If not then its probably to much...it all depends on the individual..not the team. Probably no way in hell I would of ran that in hs or make anyone run that for that matter
It is actually not that uncommon for girls teams in California to be doing 70+ mpw. I know it may sound hard for some people on Letsrun to believe, but there are teams in California that train and work very hard... amazing work ethic on some of these teams.
EZ10Miler wrote:
No way wrote:he coach might've been trying to get in alot of threshold miles without taxing them too much.
Call me crazy, but why not have them do a threshold run then?
To get the same mileage in at threshold pace without the stress of keeping that pace the entire time. I really don't know, I was just brainstorming.
I know during my base phase I'll do 10 miles of 200m threshold 200m easy just to get the threshold work in while staying as aerobic as possible.
Many high school kids have trouble concentrating enough to do a continuous tempo run. Also, while it may be very boring to do it on a track, it makes it very easy for a coach to terminate the workout for different kids at different points - that is adjust the workout to the needs of each athlete. 30 x 400 is more volume than I've seen most high school kids handle, but if there are some elite types running 60-70 mpw, I could see doing something close to this at tempo pace or just slightly faster.
While it would be great to be able to take the distance runners off to some great locale for tempo work, it is likely that the coach has responsibilities to other athletes and can't leave the track and meet those responsibilities, too.
It's entirely possible that the coach is psychotic, but why don't you observe the workout and then ask him what they did and why they were doing it. Avoid a judgemental attitude and you might just learn something in the process
EZ10Miler wrote:
Regardless of the pace, it just sounds terribly boring. I'm sure there's a better way to get the same result w/o the monotony.
In my view it's bad workout simply due to the boredom factor.
Word. I don't think we did any more than 10 repeats at one distance for a workout in HS.
Looks similar to Daniel's "cruise intervals".
A 7.5 mile "tempo run" may be a bit far to keep a steady hard pace for such young runners. Even for experienced runners 7.5 miles as a "tempo run" would be pretty far to run fast unless it's just a faster easy run.
15 x 400m w/1:00 rest is just enough rest to bring the heart rate back down a bit and clear some lactate out. Then, just as it "starts to get hairy"...ie: after 15 straight reps you accumulate a lot of fatigue/lactate, etc, you then take a 4 minute rest and start again.
The problems would be 1)make sure the athletes don't run so fast and 2)make sure the athletes take the rest very easy.
How is this different than a marathoner doing 8x1mile with 1-2min rest? The only difference is that the reps are shorter.
It's a very good high density workout and a very good patience building workout. If you have athletes that like to be "gun-ho" this will calm them down pretty quickly and teach patience...something lacking in many younger runners.
Alan
Carolina Boy wrote:
You don't have or give enough information to answer your question.
Is 7.5 miles too far for some high school girl to run. Of course not, it depends on their weekly mileage. And it depends on the specific of the workout. What pace was this workout done at compared to their vVO2 Max. If it was greater than 95% of their vVO2 max than definately I think its too much regardless of weekly mileage. But if they were done at less than 95% of their vVO2 Max (say 90-92%) it may be OK for some advanced girls. Depends on what they are working on.
It could very well be a lactate threshold or aerobic threshold workout were they start with 30 x 400 and then next time they do 15 x 800 and then the next time 10 x 1200 then 7.5 x 1600 and evenutally its 7.5 mile tempo run. I don't know that I'd do it that way but I've seen coaches approach it that way.
Try not judging other runners/coaches workouts without knowing the specifics or intent, its a bad idea.
Sorry, there is no need for a HS girl or ven a HS boy to be doing 7.5 miles of threshold running in a single workout, that is overkill, no need for it. The longest race for a HS runner is 5k, except the rare kid who runs a 10k in some jr national meet or Penn Relays (bri J., how'd that turnout?) even then there would be no need to run 7.5 miles of threshold work.
Californaia has burnt out more HS kids than the rest of the US combined, now we know why.
One of the main problems we have regarding youth athletics in this country is old men who place their limitations (physically and mentally) on the upcoming young runners.
There is no HS race distance that would necessitate the need for 7.5 miles at LT. They would be better served, IMO, by 4-5 miles at 75-80%VO2max, if they are trying to build threshold, or 12x400m at 92-95%VO2max if they are trying to build speed. Since most sectional/regional championships are in 2-3 weeks, I don't think the kind of volume at intensity provided by 30x400m is appropriate.
Easter Bunnies wrote:
One of the main problems we have regarding youth athletics in this country is old men who place their limitations (physically and mentally) on the upcoming young runners.
What would you suggest, "go all the way or don't go at all"? Think about it dumbass, no HS girl needs to run 30 x 400, none at all. No point, everything you do should have a good reason, there is no good reason for that.
BTW, I'm not an old man.
30 x 400m = 12km that's a long way & I'm sure a lot further than they are racing
If they are planning on going to the Olympics maybe its ok, but otherwise it's a good way of getting them to quit running
Some of the responses in this thread really prove the truth in Shadrack Kiptoo's quote about how running in America has made him soft and the he needs to go back to Kenya and train harder like his brother.