Hodgie-san [guest] from LetsRun.com
"The Way" Posted 6-30-2002 14:31
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In response to those who are looking for the best post collegiate coaching, or group to train with, or those who wish to be discovered by Dr. Sexy Sadie...
You are on your own. Study Lydiard etc. listen to JK, malmo and any others willing to share their knowledge.
Everything you need to know is readily available to you. "The Way" is right in front of your face. Just look in the mirror grasshopper runner it is all about YOU.
Make yourself great. No coach or group can do it for you. Start your own group of one & discover your selves.
"When the best student hears about the way, He practices it assiduously;
When the average student hears about the way, It seems to him one moment there and gone the next;
When the worst student hears about the way, He laughs out loud.
If he did not laugh, It would not be worthy of being the way."
Tao Te Ching
Lao Tzu
Half-assed [guest] from LetsRun.com
Look within yourself Posted 6-30-2002 16:39
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Mr. Hodge
I respect you a great deal and I agree with the fact that the individual is most responsible for themselves and that if the individual is not willing to sacrifice they will have no chance no matter where or with whom they are training.
However I also believe in the power involved in group training. Without taking anything away from you I believe that it must have been easier for you back in the day knowing the training group that you worked with.
I also believe that many of the training groups that have begun in the last few years have been in response to the success of your group and Shorter's crew out in Boulder. I believe that you may be underestimating what a special and unique situation that you were involved with. I also believe that you are right in the fact that very few young guns have the desire that was shared by you folks back in the day and that is first and foremost in importance.
ALWAYS A RESPECTFUL FAN
ttc [guest] from LetsRun.com
I'm sure....... Posted 6-30-2002 16:42
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....Gabe Jennings would agree with you.
HRE [guest] from LetsRun.com
groups vs, individuals Posted 6-30-2002 16:54
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Success has come both ways. Look at the two great Aussie marathoners of the last two decades. DeCastella was always a "group" man. Moneghetti stayed at home and trained by himself. So did Derek Clayton and Ron Hill.
I had a good friend with loads of talent who was always looking for groups and partners to train with because he lacked the discipline to get himself out the door on his own. The answer is in finding what you need to do and a way of doing it,
Bloomers [guest] from LetsRun.com
Nenow Posted 6-30-2002 19:50
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Nenow was practicly a running hermit. He turned out o.k. didn't he?
JEH [guest] from LetsRun.com
"the way" Posted 7-1-2002 18:33
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ttc, I am not sure I understand your comment. Are you attempting to talk smack to Hodge?? If so, I think you might have a little bit of an issue with runnin' your fingers over the keyboard before you've thought out an appropriate response. I am not saying you have to agree with all that you read on the board, but some of the stuff you've posted in the last week or two has not made you look too bright. First, you said you didn't have a problem critiquing Warhurst as he appeared to be full of himself... oops (no need to elaborate there). Now, you are talking smack to a 2:10 marathoner, longtime running expert? A funny thing is that Gabe, notwithstanding his well-documented eccentricities, has run pretty well, too. I don't know about you, but when the ESTABLISHED runners of the board chime in with their opinions/insights, that's when I perk up to make sure I listen to what they're saying as these are the most valuable (& worth consideration) posts on this board. So, use a little better judgment or be judged, ttc.
Anyway, I hope Hodge corrects me if I am wrong, but I do not think his post was about running as an individual as opposed to running in a group. As Half-assed pointed out, Hodgie-san had success training in a group. Rather, I think Hodgie is saying that we are not nearly so much "victims" of our circumstance as we make ourselves out to be. We individually are ultimately responsible for our successes and failures. We could probably be in any one of a number of different groups and achieve success if we ourselves are dedicated/determined. On the flip side, we could fail in the best training group. Being in the "wrong" group is a good excuse that we like to lean on when things don't go as we had hoped (when we fail).
I agree, HRE, that the answer in finding what you need to do and a way of doing it. However, I am a little suspicious of one's outlook if one says they MUST find the right group. Don't get me wrong, a group adds great benefit (and can lead to lifelong friendships), but we ought to be clear about on whom the responsibility falls for our achievement... ourselves, individually.
There is no getting around that, as a whole, we (competitive distance runners in the US) are pathetically SOFT. How else can you explain how there were 10times (multiplier unsubstantiated but certainly close... you get the point) as many fast guys 20-25 years ago (pick your parameters)? We know far more than runners did back in the day (think of the sheer transfer of knowledge/info on this board alone from people out East, West, from 3:50 milers to 8:20 steeplers to many sub14s, 29s, and 2:20s). So, apparently, we haven't been doing too well at putting this information into practice.
No doubt about it, we do talk a great game. Heck, we might even actually BELIEVE that we are going to do this or that, but until we put our legs where our mouths are, we are bunch of wusses.
Does anyone disagree that, collectively, we are a bunch of lazy, distracted, undisciplined excuse-makers (I made a list of 25-30 excuses we commonly use a couple of weeks ago, but I am not going to include it as it does not nearly capture all of the excuses we make)? If so, let's hear how we aren't. If so, what are you (and I) going to do about it? Personally, I think we need to rethink if being any good is something we want (cause we certainly don't act like it). I think it's safe to say that being a good distance runner comes at a cost. So, if we're not willing to pay significant dues, then let's just give up this silly charade about wanting to be fast and move along to whatever it is we really do care about. If being fast is a priority (maybe preeminent), then let's close that gap between what we believe and our behaviors (see the best student above).
Let's show the older generation that we're not worthless, and let's start providing the strong upcoming generation (pretty good HSers the last coupla years) a good example. Most importantly, though, let's stop making excuses and follow through with what we think we can (and want to) do.
HRE [guest] from LetsRun.com
from one initial guy to another Posted 7-1-2002 21:29
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Good post, JEH. Here's an example:
In the 70s there was a guy in my club who married really young (compared to what most of us do) and had a kid. One day his wife, who was even younger than he was,up and left, leaving him as a single dad who had to work to support the son. Now, a lot of guys in this situation would have given up the sport figuring there is no way they can train properly under those circumstances. But this guy waited until late at night when he was sure his son was asleep and would remain that way for a while. Then he'd go out and run four miles as fast as he could, usually around twenty minutes. On Sundays, his former in-laws would watch the kid for a couple of hours and he'd do a twenty miler.
When Bill Rodgers ran his wind-aided 1:29 30km, this guy was with BR until about fourteen miles when the lack of miles apparently caught up with him and he faded. He still ran 1:33 or 1:34.
Is the point that we should all do four hard miles a day and a weekend twenty? No, the point is that this guy didn't get bogged down into thinking that he couldn't train or race well in terrible (for training) circumstances. He found what little opportunity he had and made the most of it.
I think this is what Hodgie's aluding to. Look at your circumstances and abilities and think about what you CAN DO, not about what you can't. And if you aren't getting the results you want, re-evaluate. But don't limit yourself by thinking you're handicapped by not having a sponsor, or a training group, or a massage therapist, etc.
JEH [guest] from LetsRun.com
Anybody top that? Posted 7-1-2002 22:37
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That's exactly what I mean, HRE (by the way, HRE, be careful in appeasing me as I am newly officially determined to be a Troll (by the new cop in town - bubu))!
I mean that example is crazy ludicrous! Not because I doubt its veracity, but because NO ONE today (in the US) would have the balls to train through that kind of adversity. Hardly anyone (even with near-optimal training) would even have the cajones to go with BR (cruising through ½mar in 63-low).
Hopefully, I would not be changing the topic too much from its intended purpose, but I think it would be cool for others to follow your precedent; to show the pansy-greenhorn runners of today (myself included) some REAL examples of dedication/fortitude. Then, next time we're cryin' and excuse makin' about why we're not the best, we'll have a good list to remind ourselves why.
So, in the spirit of starting a new, but slightly different, Without Limits thread...
What is the best example of running through great adversity that you have had the privilege of witnessing?
ttc [guest] from LetsRun.com
Reply to JEH..... Posted 7-2-2002 07:41
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I didn't mean anything negative by my post. Don't give it a 2nd thought if you thought it was inappropriate.
Hodgie-san [guest] from LetsRun.com
simplicity Posted 7-2-2002 10:09
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The pursuit of excellence in athletics is a lonely pursuit, wether you train with a group or not.
Ultimately you are responsible for your own success or failure to achieve.
If you begin to believe in yourself it won't matter where, when or even how you run.
Our activity is pure simplicity and best to keep it that way, just run baby!
Club Supporter [guest] from LetsRun.com
Simple Sport Posted 7-2-2002 12:37
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I agree that our sport is simple and "just run". I also believe in the Club System for 2 major reasons (both are intangible).
1. Good athletes make the people around them better. We see this in all sports. I believe that both Shorter and Rodgers did this in their prime. I know that we hear this all the time but have a hard time accepting it because we can't put our finger on why?
2. Sacrafice is something we all believe that we are doing if we are running 100 plus miles a week. I contend that if you are not willing to phsically move yourself to another part of the country you are not willing to sacrifice enough. So one of the great things about the groups is that they measure sacrifice. I will never forget 10 years ago when 2 promising young athletes came out of college and appeared to be destin for greatness. Bob signed a lucrative deal with Nike and told me that he would be leaving the country to train with some of the best in the world. Todd signed a lucrative deal with Adidas and told me that "Bob was crazy...I can train right here in Knoxville it worked for me in college." 10 years later we view Bob as the greatest American 5k runner ever and Todd is a good guy that we kind of expected more of. They both sacrificed, just one was willing to sacrifice more.
idealist [guest] from LetsRun.com
How 'bout this... Posted 7-2-2002 12:50
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First of all, I'm not crazy about HRE's example. Bully for the
fellow's determination to train, but not for his determination to
train at the cost of leaving a child alone, 20 minutes or no.
But I admire the spirit of the example.
Second, the original thread was not a pro or con of the club
system. If you think that running with others will help you,
Hodge's point is that you should make it happen, not wish
there was a club around. Start your own group. But guide
your own training. Do a long run even if the rest of the group
is taking the week off for 4th of July. Run those quarters in 68
even if the other guys want to do 72s and then run the last
one in 62. Or find some people who will do 68s. Run your
tempo at threshhold pace, even if the group is doing race
pace (or easy pace).
JEH [guest] from LetsRun.com
Veterans pitching a shutout Posted 7-2-2002 18:12
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ttc, No worries from me.. actually, I couldn't totally make out what you were saying anyway. I just want to make sure that the veterans of the board KNOW that their opinions/knowledge/insights are valued here. There may be 5 times as many collegiates here, but this is THEIR board. They have been hittin' the roads, trails, and tracks for YEARS, representing, promoting, learning more about through experience, and carrying our sport finely. If young-guns don't think there is anything to be gleaned from these guys... well, maybe that's why there was like 280-something A-qualifyers for the marathon in the 1980 trials as opposed to 29(?) in for the 2000 edition. Call me old-fashioned, but I think we should RESPECT our elders. So, perhaps I am to quick to respond to anything seemingly communicates otherwise, but I am not sure I'll be able to change that.
Now, as for an example of dedication....
I ran with a guy who ran 70+ sub-2:20s over his career. It didn't matter who was running around him (although I think he really enjoyed the group thing) he would consistently run his mileage. He had a rather uninventful favorite workout of eight 800s separated by a 200 jog. When he was by himself, he would set his watch to beep when it got to 2:20, and he seemed genuinely excited to play his game of "beat the beeper". His training was downright boringly consistent (as opposed to my own up and down fluctuations). I remember a few times where he would run a marathon on Sunday, look like crap on a 2-3mile gimpy jog on Tuesday, and then somehow by Friday be running again like normal - preparing for the next marathon that was 3 weeks away. He used to say that he felt looser & better on the second marathon (when he had two within the same month). I figured he just fed himself this lie until he actually believed it. Whatever it was, it worked as he often ran better in the second race. Obviously, this guy was bio-mechanically gifted to be able to do this. STILL, his consistency to his routine over the longterm REQUIRED dedication that one doesn't often see.
Unfortunately, I gave a veteran example (when I should be trying to provide an example from this generation).
EXAMPLES OF NOTEWORTHY DEDICATION TO RUNNING SCORE:
VETERANS: 2
TODAY'S GUYS: 0
Scorekeeper [guest] from LetsRun.com
Old guys vs. Young Guys Posted 7-2-2002 18:45
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Is it a great achievement to say that you have run a marathon in every state?
Is it a great achievement to run a marathon in under 4 hours 52 weeks in a row?
WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?
Doug Kurtis was a 2:12 marathoner that chose to run several sub 2:20 marathons in a road whore fashion rather than commit himself to being the best possible marathoner he could be. I feel that Doug is a perfect example of what we don't want our young bucks to follow. I feel that Salazar not being able to continue his career into his 30's but going after it is a much better example. What was Doug's best finish in an Olympic Trials? How many U.S. teams did Doug travel on? Please young runners do not follow that example. It is a dead end street.