Lydiard Aerobic Phase

He doesn't emphasize long slow distance.

He emphasizes runs at your best aerobic effort- the fastest you can go without racing or feeling undue strain. From what I understand, you finish your runs exhilarated, not exhausted, but "pleasantly tired."

3 runs a week to your 'best aerobic' pace until you feel pleasantly tired and the rest of the mileage is made up of easy to steady runs like your 7-7:30/pace.

The bread and the butter sessions are these 3/week runs on alternating days of around an hour in duration. They become the 3/week hill circuits in the next phase and the 3/week hard anaerobic rep sessions in the phase after that.

Mix up the surfaces and start mixing up the gradients once the hour runs are being covered, all nice and simple.

I have always wondered: How would "best aerobic effort" relate to Daniels paces?

Nicely put Sim

i see 'best aerobic pace' as being tempo. Would be good to have that supported by another though.

Even more so as it is probably the most mis- or "un"-understood aspect about Lydiard-training.

too true, are there any resident experts in letsrun or is it simply all confusion.

The way i see it and train it is that you stay as close to on your LT or Aerobic Threshold or whatever they like to call it. So no anaerobic pain allowed i reckon. For the athletes though the simply push it for an hour so they feel nicely dead at the end but not overwhelmed.

This has come up many times here. Lydiard didn't believe in slow distance running but he also didn't believe in straining and killing yourself. He really wasn't very specific about pace. The only advice he EVER gave me about pace on distance runs was to "enjoy yourself."

If you were running too fast he thought you'd know it because in the next day or two you'd be unable to do your run normally. Instead, you'd need either to shorten it significantly or to run much slower than you normally did.

On the other hand, while he wasn't a fan of slow distance, he always said that you didn't need to worry about going too slowly because as you got fitter you'd go faster.

There generally was some variation in pace. Snell told me that at the start of the base season the long runs would be "around 7:00 pace." That's pretty slow for a group of sub 2:20 marathoners and 4:00 milers. As the season went on and they got fitter the pace would drop to something in the low 6:00s. But that improvement came because they got fitter, They didn't chase those paces and friends of mine who know Bill Baillie well say Bill never really got his long run pace to drop.

Snell also told me that the shorter runs. the ones in the 10-12 mile range were run at a pace that was "a bit faster" than the long runs were. How fast varied from runner to runner and time to time. Guys like Magee, Julian, Halberg, Puckett, might in the latter part of the phase,run 10 miles in 55 minutes or less. Snell probably got into the mid 50s at times. But again, the paces came to them. They did not go out for a 12 mile run saying, "Ok, we have to get under 70 minutes here." Barry Magee told me he'd often go out for a 10 mile run and go "out" for and hour and come "back" in 24-26 minutes. But again, that was a by product, not a goal.

So with those shorter runs you have something that we might call "tempo work." But it generally wasn't done at a specific pace and was never really forced.

If you're going to do Lydiard-like basework then, you would generally want to run comfortably but not slower than you need to in order to reamin comfortable. At times you might want to push the pace up to the border of the "comfort/discomfort zone."

Is 3 times a week the recommended amount for the harder runs HRE?

In relation to Daniels, a "best aerobic effort" falls somewhere between "E" pace and "M" pace. I wouldn't worry about it. One of my issues with JDRF is that it's a bit too pace-specific. I like going by feel more. Although, some people do need a chart to tell them exactly how fast to run such and such of a run or interval.

seven 7s wrote:In relation to Daniels, a "best aerobic effort" falls somewhere between "E" pace and "M" pace. I wouldn't worry about it.

....after bout a month of pure aerobic running then begin putting so called 'tempo' runs, but at aerobic speeds (so below LT pace) and then some longer fartleks, but once again nothing above LT pace and even slower mot of the time, but u can put in some quicker stuff towards the end of this phase egs long intervals, quicker fartleks, hills, etc.........then hills/transition phase...then specificity...then voila....u run fast

We addressed a lot of this back in the Lydiard V Daniels thread and I refer a lot of you back to there. Only problem on that thread is all the "Trolls" who contributed !!!,so I will throw on one of my posts which backs up HRE.

"Even though Arthur prescribed a

"High Aerobic" pace, he was also the first person to say : "Just get out and run, Build up the time you spend on your feet, do not worry how far you have been. As time goes on you find you will run those courses faster and faster but within your limits ".

Peter said for his Tokyo build up he felt he never ran faster than 6 minute miles. If he did so one day he ran 7 minute miles the next. I have confirmed that with Bill Baillie who I ran many miles with and I remember running many 20 milers where we would have averaged 7 minute miles.

My best "faster" long run with Bill (and a crew of far better runners than me) was from his holiday home North of Auckland where we set out to run 22 miles one hot summers morning (Jan 1973 !!!).

After one hour some of the guys got a little "toey" ( Kiwi-ism for wanting to run faster). They (and Bill) literally took off. I just kept running along the best I could comfortably. Over the next 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour I

would come across exhausted runners on the side of the road.

As I got to the 21 mile mark Bill's wife Val pulled up in a car (Bill in passenger seat) and said "Do you want a ride". I said "No, not until I do 22 miles" At which point I joined them in the car. I did not have watch on that

day but Bill said if had kept that pace up I would have run a 2:40 marathon.

It also turned out that only 3 of us ran the full 22 miles. Bill only went 20 !

My point I guess, is that it took me basically 4 years to get to that sort of level of Aerobic fitness to of that sort of run. As I said most of our long runs were done at around the 7 minute mile mark.

The fast times for the famous 22 mile Waiatarua Run that were talked about in Arthurs Book's came about because of some "skullduggery" by Bill and some of the other athletes.

Most of the time that course was run in 2hrs 25 - 30. Barry Magee and Jeff Julian had times around 2 hrs 15 on a consistent basis.

One day Bill said some of them ran around 2:20, but told Jeff Julian they did 2:15. So he went out and did 2:12.

They repeated the process the next week and told him they did 2:12. He went out and did 2:08.

That openned a can of worms as athletes started to go faster and faster around that course.

As Peter Snell said he cut his time from 2:25 to 2:15 with the odd one in 2:12. Bill confirmed that most of the runs were around 2:20 - 25.

That course, even though it had a really tough hill in it was predominately downhill. After the first hour of which 20 minutes was up hill, the rest was not necessarily easy but was a lot more pleasant running. The worst hill was near the finish at Arthurs house !!!."

Another point. When I ran with Bill (70's & 80's)we would start off those long runs very slow as Bill had quite bad achilles tendons. Really a shuffle to start off with !!!!. It suited me as I am not a morning person !!

But as the run progressed so did the pace. If we looked at the run n ttal we would say we ran 7 min mile but we may have started out at 9 mins and come home nearer 6's. But as I said to a few people here : Who counted !!

so good Kim ta

Could give you give a sample week that you did with those guys?

Sim, I am enjoying your posts on the "central Governor". I am too slower thinker to react so quickly to what the guys are chucking in there !!

OK : To answer yor question I will throw in a little detail about myself

I have been "running" most of the last 40 years but struggled with training early on, a lot from not being consistent enough but I did find I was a late developer(I did not break 5 mins for a mile until I was 21)

I was bought up on pure Lydiard but because I struggled I spent a lot of years just building up my Endurance.

I met Bill Baillie after I joined Lynndale club in Auckland in 1967.

I "officially" met Bill while I was running up in the Auckland Domain one lunch hour in mid 1968. Bill being Bill just pulled up alongside me and started talking. When I said I belonged to the same club he cracked up laughing.

From that point on I probably averaged 3 or 4 lunchtimes a week with him (sometimes all 5). We usually ran 6 miles and the pace varied according to the day !!( I can't find my diary for that year!!)

Later that year (Sept - Oct) the club had a number of teams in the "Round the Harbour" Relay (now defunct). Bill was on the Club A Team, I was on the C team. The race was run on a "handicap" basis with slower Teams off first.

Our C team all ran very well and I had the last lap, Avondale to Grey Lynn. When I started I was in 3rd place. One of the runners in front of me was Dave Karl ( ran a heap of 4:01 - 02 miles in early 60's). To my surprise I nailed Dave about 2 miles from the start of the leg. Word must have spread back to some of our other Teams as next thing Bill and Val Baillie pull up alongside me in their car. Val took over the Driving and Bill hung out the window yelling encouragement, by that stage I was in front.

Bill stayed with me all the way to the finish. Yes ! we won.

What amazed me was that Bill was so excited/delighted with that win. He enjoyed contributing to the whole deal. No matter what the level of the Team. ( His team ran did not run well but that did not bother him)

The biggest thing I learned from that was how to push myself past the limits. I am not sure if that was because I was scared to let Bill down or because I was scared of being caught by another team. !

A month later I did my first long run with Bill and Ivan Keats (15 miles across the top of the Waitakeres).

I continued running those 6 miles at lunchtimes but also added another 6 to 7 miles on Tuesday and Thursday evenings.

I note in 1969 that all our club nights we used to do our 5k time trials. I remember vividly Bill talking constantly (while running easily !), telling us to control the pace by running evenly. I learned so much from that . All my times in those were around 16:30.

At that stage I had run a few 20 milers (Waiatarua's) from Bills home in Methuen Road.

By 1970 I had gone to live in Hamilton. But over the next 3 years I made regular trips to Auckland and ran many Waiataruas from Bills place. By that stage he was advising a heap of athletes and still "trucking along" very well himself.

Basically my Typical Winter week at that time would be along the lines of:

Sunday : Waiatarua (19 - 20 miles)

Monday : 7 to 10miles (almost a fartlek .. we did not muck around !)

Tuesday: Generally 13 miles on a hilly course

Wednesday: As for Monday .. But may run a 3k Timetrial or a session of say 8 X 200)

Thursday : As for Tuesday

Friday : 5 to 6 miles easy

Saturday : Club run (Up to 10 miles) or a Race

Hope I have not rambled here too much !!!!

Cheers

So not at all rambling. Could you ramble bit about Arthur himself please?

and thanks very much. Re: the Noaked thread to be truthful i can't read it all and definitely don't understand it all, and often have to do some background research to have a clue, but it's been fun!

Sim:

I sent you an invitation to join Lydiard Foundation. Did you not get that?

This is what I like to do:

Mon: 60 easy pace

Tue: 90 easy pace

Wed: 60 between tempo and easy pace on hilly course, or possibly 3-5K time trial

Thu: 90-120 easy pace

Fri: 60 between tempo and easy pace on hilly course, plus 10x100 strides

Sat: 60 Tempo, or 5-10K Time Trial

Sun: 120-180mins (or longer?) easy pace or slower

Easy pace = 90-120seconds slower than 5K pace (Daniels easy pace)

I'll also like to do 1x1000 or 2x500 or 3x300 after some of the easy runs. This is a pretty hard schedule but I find I can recover in time for the next day even when I have to push the end of each run to keep pace.