Hall and the American Record

Hall is a freak. Khannouchi is a freak. There are 300,000,000 people in America. Chances are that a handful of people here have the tools to make it happen.

I propose that we change our immigration laws to make a bunch of pale, skinny losers on letsrun feel better about themselves.

Aah, a member of the Hitler Youth with an IQ < 0. LOL.

you are a.... wrote:

retarded person

How about this...maybe Hall should move to London and become a citizen of great Britain....then we'd at least see coverage of his race next time he runs London!

why is this even an issue? i feel like other sports fans don't bitch and moan this much. never once have i heard a hockey fan complaining about a russian player or baseball fans getting up in arms about japaneese or south american players.

asdlfkjasdlfkjslkdfj wrote:

It is pretty much indisputable that there is a greater talent for distance running in Morrocco than there is in the United States.

I dispute this, and not just because we have a bigger talent pool but also (and mainly) because I am pretty confident in the pervasiveness of doping amongst Moroccan distance runners.

All of these posts have gotten ridiculous, and this thread has gotten way off topic.

The bottom line is that it takes nothing away from KK if you say Ryan Hall is the American record holder. Where I draw the line in terms of citizenship/record eligibility is if the athlete has lived in the USA since their formative years, has never competed for any other national athletic federation, and changed citizenship for reasons completely unrelated to athletics. So, Meb counts because his family sought political asylum in the US when he was at a young age, and Abdi counts because he came to the US when he was just 12 years old. KK and Lagat would not count because both of them have competed for their national teams and in both cases the change in citizenship was at least partially related to disagreements with their national athletic federations.

When did Khalid ever represent Morocco in international competition?

American Hero wrote:

Where I draw the line in terms of citizenship/record eligibility is if the athlete has lived in the USA since their formative years, has never competed for any other national athletic federation, and changed citizenship for reasons completely unrelated to athletics.

And you're suggesting that USATF should draw the line there as well? Ridiculous. A citizen is a citizen. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if Hall was black, and you all know it.

guy not from there wrote:

It obviously has something to do with race, though probably not religion. You see Hall as more American than Khannouchi not just because Hall was born in America, but because Khannouchi is an Arab and Hall is white. You think the American record should reflect the ability of an "American", by which you mean a white guy or a non-East African black guy. I think it's pretty racist of you.

If that is the case, Einstein, then why do people consider Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player instead of Larry Bird and Hank Aaron the home run king (I don't consider druggie Bonds a contender) instead of Babe Ruth? Simple, they were all born here regardless of their color. KK was not born here. I'm with the original poster, I think there should be two separate records, the "American record" and the "American-born record". We have an enormous number of immigrants; I don't think they should completely erase American-born athletes any more than I think the Kenyans who became citizens of Arab nations should own those nations' records.

Just keep playing that card, though; it worked for OJ.

This is not about race, or about where you trained or grew up. Its a matter of your country of citizenship when you run the time. If you change citizenship and set a record - there you have it. The idea of "native born" records is as absurd as having a "white guy" record.

If you run the time while a citizen of another country and then change citizenship, that time doesn't retroactively become the record of your new home.

Hwy 6 wrote:

The fact that Hall has overcome so much, believed in himself and his God, makes the issue so much more worthwhile to discuss in my opinion.

Please explain how Hall's struggles, belief in himself, and religious faith exceed Khannouchi's (or Cuban-born Alberto Salazar's, while we're at it).

This issue is more of patriotism than anything else. Remember how the Kenyans reacted when Cherono switched to Qatar 6 years ago. They were pissed off and fought tooth and nail to make him suffer. That was one of the craziest steeple chases the world has ever seen. If you leave your country and run for another, your country will be pissed. Similarly, those who have been running for their country will be less reluctant to accept the "sudden" representative.

There is nothing wrong with wanting Ryan Hall's performance to represent "American-born" men. As said before, KK set the record prior to being American and his second record, when coupled with his new American identity, was not a feat many Americans will feel kindred to.

It does come down to ownership. Can America claim ownership, or partnership, in KKs records? Not really. Can American claim it with Hall--yes.

How old and how good was Khalid when he moved here? Do you even know?

inc cor wrote:

Can America claim ownership, or partnership, in KKs records? Not really.

As was already pointed out, Khannouchi came to the US in 1992, long before he set the world best, as a Moroccan citizen, or broke it as an American. He lived in his friend's basemant and worked in a restaurant kitchen. I've run some very small local Brooklyn races where the course record was set by K. Khannouchi in 1994. He and his family always show up for the North County 5K in Westchester, and there are regular Khalid sightings in Rockefeller Park Preserve.

I feel a lot more ownership or partnership with him than with California white boy Ryan Hall. I am very excited by Hall's achievements, but you are wrong to assume that people can't identify with Khannouchi's immigrant experience.

the former mobile9 wrote:

When did Khalid ever represent Morocco in international competition?

For real? I am not getting into this debate, but c'mon. He wasn't an American Citizen until 2000 - he was already the marathon world record holder for Morocco at that point (2:05.42). He then became an American Citizen in 2000, won Chicago in AR record time (2:07.XX) and in 2002 won London, breaking his own WR (and AR) in 2:05.38.

Personally, I recognize, admire and accept KK's record as the American record. Period.

The underlying question that is always just out of grasp is about about the African dominance. What did he potentially bring with him, that we do not have here, that allows him to run that fast. Is it the culture, diet (or lack thereof) upbringing, the environment in which he was raised, or something else.

Hall's success shows that a young man reared in our culture can run at truly world-class levels. Meaning - he was, likely, exposed to Sodapop, Cap'n cruch, video games, and Saturday morning cartoons and is still able to compete with the Africans. However, the similarities between Hall, and at least some Africans, is that Hall has seemingly lived at altitude throughout his lifetime.

the former mobile9 wrote:

Hey Hwy 6-

'Arab' isn't a race; you could be half Icelandic and half Swedish but if you grow up speaking Arab, you're an Arab.

Depends on who is doing the defining. Many Egyptians speak Arabic but don't self-identify as Arabs. It's a little like being Jewish. You can be culturally Jewish, religiously Jewish, or ethnically Jewish, and there is a lot of overlap, but that doesn't mean that when two people say that they are Jewish they mean the same thing.

To everyone saying that we wouldn't be having this discussion if Ryan Hall was black...bull.

What about Khadevis Robinson. If he were to set the 800m AR there would be NO problems from anyone. He was born in dallas, TX.

Now if Kipketer were to come back, move to the US (become a naturalized citizen) and run a 1:42.0, people would be whining and complaining about the legitimacy of that as the American record.

Those people arguing that this is only about the color of their skin are the ones that are probably the most racist on here. The people arguing for American born vs American citizen are just having a sense of national pride.

We did NOT produce KK. We DID produce RH. That is the issue, not racism.