To the Lydiardites, why am I slower?

What distance are you racing over? Are you cutting back the milage enough before your races? What milage are you doing a week at the moment?

I averaged high 70s this summer with a high of 95. Now I'm doing about 45 mpw

oh and I usually race 8K but this weekend was a 5K so that we have more rest for our conference 8K next week

Too much interval work done too hard.

so take this Tuesdays intervals lighter?? I can't go against what my coach asks me to do but I can run them lighter. i.e. hit my 400s in 75 instead of 69

Lydiard always said you can't race hard at the same time and that's what it looks like you've been doing. I fought with my college coach about this for years and finally prevailed when the team's performances kept getting worse and worse, then got better after two weeks of fairly easy distance work.

Yes, if you can't stop doing the interval sessions I'd say to ease back on them, and whatever you do, don't get into racing them with your temmates.

You are beating them in practice because you are racing.

They are beating you in races because they save their racing for race day.

Not a big Lydiard fan, but I can see the problem.

First, you're summer mileage was run too slowly, and you did not bump up the speed at all as you got into better shape.

Second, you had no tempo work or medium hard 5k/10k time trials, or even fartlek to help prep you for the transition into sharpening and racing season.

Third you mention no strength focus, either as a training phase or mixed into your summer miles. That leaves you ahead in some ways but far far behind in others. Right now the balance favors those who prepared more specifically for the racing season without overdoing.

You lack the training to go into the well in races (notice nobody really cares if you can go jog an easy 10 mile warm down after?), and you also lack the muscle power you need on those challenging cross country courses -- with tough hills, and pace changes. All in all that racing sets you back on the power side of things without actually rectifying your deficits. I imagine you feel as though you've been thrown off the back of train. As for those long interval sessions where you shine, remember there is no snail jog recovery in racing. It's a one shot deal, you either have it or you don't. You may be able to salvage your final races, but I imagine you may have left things a bit too late.

I have a somewhat similar problem in that I'm currently overtrained. I have a couple of marathons coming up in the next 3 weeks. I've followed Lydiard's schedule with success in the past but the problem is that it will only allow you to peak about twice a year. So, that limits my marathons to about 2/year and severly cuts back on 5K racing, etc. I want to have more fun than that.

Lydiard would have you do the following: 4 months base, 1 month hills, 10 weeks tempo runs, then racing season which could last about 4 weeks. (I'm oversimplyfying his program for the sake of brevity). Then, you go back to base building and start the process all over again. Adding all that up, one can race seriously twice/year, not enough for me. I'm 63 and have run 12 marathons (and lots of other races) so far since Jan. 1. I had my best time in April of 3:26 when I followed Lydiard and since then I've piled up the mileage while racing some 5Ks and marathons. After the 3:26, my marathon times keep getting slower while my 5K times are the same as last year. However, I think I'm putting "money in the bank" to eventually run a fast marathon maybe in the Spring.

DeCastella didnt do do periodization but touched all the bases (distance, speed, and hills) every week and was always ready to race. I'm wondering if that might not be a better approach for me since I love to race so much and I'm never going to have to worry about tapering for a world record attempt or the Olympics. Lately, I've been running two 90 min. runs/day, 7 days/week. I'm tapering now for the 2 upcoming marathons within the next 3 weeks by cutting back to a 1 hour easy run/day.

I concur with what has been said.

1. Training is preparation for a race...so if you are running ragged in training you are leaving it on the training day. Why not run with the people who are beating you by 45 seconds on the training day instread of trying to out do them and prove to yourself that you are better. Run a bit more prudently on training day.

2. Lydiard advocated mileage, but he also said do it at a higher intensity if possible. So if you were just running without running controlled & hard that is NOT what he said. I have an article from him where he explains this if you want it (mgm153@yahoo.com)

3. Finally...if you are all on the same team, maybe you should be supporting each other while training and racing rather than trying to trash one another or let ego get in the way. It is a lot easier to race when you see someone as helping you through the race rather than someone you absolutely shoud be thrashing. Just some thoughts.

If you run a bit lighter it will work out in a couple of weeks after the body recovers. Good luck.

Mike

mgm153@yahooo.com

(put Lydiard in the subject line and I will get it to you by Monday when I am at the office)

Lydiard told me that you could do nothing but basework and "race yourself fit." You have to race fairly frequently for that to work, but it worked very well for me. On the other hand, interval work has always slowed me.

Eventually Lydiard developed his "race week/non race week" schedule exactly to address people in your situation, i.e., those who don't want to limit themselves to a couple of fairly brief racing seasons each year.

I think many have used (low key) competitions as their only

speed work, i.e. race yourself fit. How frequently is \"fairly frequently\" in your experience?

Cheers,

Bengel

Thanks. That clears up a lot. I assume the "race week/non race week" has a small taper of a couple of days before a race. I had not heard of that before.

I believe that Ed Whitlock is training like that. As I understand it, he runs 2-3 hours/day (basework) and races about 30 times/year (race week/non race week) with a very short taper just prior to a race. That's it.

In my case, as part of my runs, I sometimes throw in a little fartlek when I feel the urge but mostly its long moderate runs of 90 mins. each, twice a day with races on the most weekends which I look at as weekly tempo runs. I might substitue a 2-3 hour run for one or two of the twice daily 90 min. runs. I would run according to Ed Whitlocks schedule but I'm not strong enough yet to handle daily 2-3 hour runs which I think are ideal.

I dont see much value in anaerobic interval work for someone who is training primarily for a marathon which is a wholy aerobic event. Also, I tend to get injured doing intervals.

Hey dsrunner you talk really good stuff for someone who is not a Lydiard fan !!!!!!.

You are right in your analysis of runit.

runit, you are running the Interval stuff too fast. I would hazard a guess that you are cutting the 1000's out in around 3 mins and your 400's at 69 are probably too quick as well. Cut back the speed and run back in the pack or do as I did when I was at college in the states. Run at the back of the pack !. Don't race the training. train to race !

dsrunner's suggestion of a 5k/10 k tempo is good.

I ran a lot of 8 to 10 k tempos instead of intervals and that helped. To give you an idea ; I could race the average 8 k cross country in 25 mins. So I ran my 8k tempos at around 29:30 to 30 mins and the 10k around 36. I did those on my school Cross country course.

If you are a 28 to 29 min runner then adjust the time accordingly.

Cheers

Why on earth do you run 150 minutes on Saturdays? I have never heard of a world class, non-marathon runner who performs 150 minute runs regularly.

Runit:

You're in a tough situation, but one that MANY, MANY high school and college kids are in right now.

You are running with a team, and you are a good runner. Therefore, your coach and probably your teammates, expect you to be in the front of every easy run, every intervals day and every race; even though you aren't running running at an OPTIMAL pace.

This scenario happens twice a week for you: running too fast, not being able to properly ADAPT to the training you have done. Then you are expected to race later that week, which tears down your already broken down body a little more. It's a slow process of decline really (or stagnation at best).

I am seeing this with my own team (I am an assistant coach, so don't really have much control over what we do). Our #1 runner is a very smart runner for a high school kid. He's a low 16:00 5k guy, but is always behind 18:00+ runners on easy days. He runs right with our 17:00 guy on "interval" days. The key is, he runs UNDER CONTROL and within his CURRENT level of fitness. It's hard to kind of swallow your pride and let people "out race" you in everyday training (that's why it's called, "TRAINING"). Our 17:00 guy cannot figure out why he can run with, or most often, in front of the 16:00 guy in practice, yet races 1:00 slower in races. CONTROL is key.

Someone said it before, but it needs to be said everyday to younger runners: THE PURPOSE OF TRAINING IS TO RACE FAST.

It is hard for young runners to understand that you have to do work at your current level to progress to the next. Everyone wants a quick fix...there's no magic in training. You can't force progression. Maybe the only real magic in training is running smart.

[quote]silkysullivan wrote:

Thanks. That clears up a lot. I assume the "race week/non race week" has a small taper of a couple of days before a race. I had not heard of that before.

I believe that Ed Whitlock is training like that. As I understand it, he runs 2-3 hours/day (basework) and races about 30 times/year (race week/non race week) with a very short taper just prior to a race. That's it.

When I stated running again in my 40's I concentrated on middle distance and trained in a club with a group of teenagers. In general I couldn't keep up with them even though I thought I was trying as hard as them. In races though I would be ahead of many that were ahead of me in practise. I don't think I am an overly competitive person but I think that some people psych themselves up, some people psych themselves down. For me to race well I need to do a number of races in order to get race tough.

Fairly frequently for me varied at different times in my life. When I was in college we'd do 11-18 cross country races, maybe five indoor meets, and 8-9 outdoor meets. On top of that, between the end of cross country and the start of outdoor track I'd usually race two marathons, a 20 miler, a 30k, a half marathon, a 20k, and one or two ten milers. I usually wouldn't race much in the summer and didn't take the obes I did too seriously.

Once graduated racing frequency dropped quite a bit. I found that if I could get into 5-6 races in the two months prior to a marathon I was usually in pretty good form. For marathons I did like to have one of those races be a 30k but otherwise it never seemed to matter. Prior to that two month strecth I'd race maybe 1-2 times a month.

I would bet you are tired. Base or no base you have to ease into hard training. And at the start your workouts need to be built on times that are close to real race spilts. If you can run 70 pace for 5k then you had best run around that pace for your opening workouts. If you go out and hammer 60 sec pace. You going to look real good in workouts and real bad in races...