While I'm not a huge fan of their work, there wasn't much to squander when they arrived in Lawrence.Fact is, KU has competed far better in track and XC than in the couple of years prior to Redwine and Clark taking over. It's not the glory days, but it's a lot better than it was in the mid 90s.
Another Letsrun.com Malcontent wrote:
Redwine and Clark have squandered that program.
And I will agree, the program is in better shape than it was with Schwartz at the helm. He was awful. Schwartz was much more concerned about earning political stripes in the sport that actually fielding a competitive team.
I think Redwine and Clark have been adequate. But the fact that the women's program has languished is tough to swallow. Then add the fact that this year's team could have been special but he failed to attract a quality freshman distance runner last year (no offense intended to Imgrund but I doubt he's ever an All American) and a quality freshman this year. Had KU done that they would have been a top 3 lock at conference this year and a lock for nationals. We're going to waste two All-Americans on a fifth place finish at the Big 12 meet at best. If Clark gets them into a top three finish at conference I'll apologize for everything I've posted.
There's potential for a LOT more.
KU!
To follow-up, I did say 4:30ish types and not that DC and Redwine made those guys all-americans, but competitive at a high collegiate level. The guy that comes to mind for me is Joshy Madathil, who ran a leg in their dmr and went from a power-lifter and 430ish miler to splitting low 4's in the dmr...possibly ran 4:03 range in the mile...I could be wrong
Else-wise, everyone is making a good pt on the talent that has escaped. BUT also keep in mind that someone who has lived in KS their whole life and has great talent, is likely to want to get the hell out of the state and perhaps see one of the coasts or just a different part of the US, especially if its paid for them. Not to say it isn't upsetting to see those runners leave, but it happens...I'm sure a lot of states have similar issues
egg-man - the question remains why are they leaving. During the 80's KSU got about every good HS runner in the state and had a very quality team. (Hessini, Warders, Vavala, Keller, Hays, Lashley, to name a few who were on one team) If the program is percieved to be good then the athletes will go. KSU also did this with the women in the 80's and 90's and they went to many national championships and had many All-Americans. (Stadler, Struckhoff, Deckert, BArry, Hoffman in the 80's and Andra, Diertich, Wolfram, Moser, Mortimer, in the 90's and they won a Big 12 crown)
The formula has not changed over the years. You get your home states best and then complement them with a few cherry picked stars or foreigners (which can come from the Kansas JC's)
In defense of Schwartz, he did go to Nationals in CC with both a men's and women's team in the 90's and several of their runners were from the state of KS and DC had a very good team last year, but if you do not get the home state kids you will probably not be consistent.
been to lawrence wrote:
The formula has not changed over the years. You get your home states best and then complement them with a few cherry picked stars or foreigners (which can come from the Kansas JC's)
Agreed, the formula is the same and it is great if it can work that way. I am sure DC (and any coach for that matter) targets the instate recruits, but if they're not interested in coming then no matter how hard you recruit them, they're not coming. It's not necessarily bad recruiting or lack of, but some guys aren't going to go instate, that's just the reality of it.
KU went to cross nationals not because of Schwartz but because of the distance coach they had at the time. I can't remember his name but it was the dude that was there before Guyman. Cox and Johnston went without a team but both were supremely talented. Johnston was the last in state All-American until Hefferon came along. That's what, about a 13 year spread. Ridiculous.
It's all relative.
KSU took Joe Moore from a 4:25/9:35 guy to 4:08/14:08
they also took Casey Johnson 4:16/1:52 to 28 min 8k's
meaning it's just as much about the attitude of the kid and a sprinkle of good/bad luck.
meaning it's just as much about the attitude of the kid and a sprinkle of good/bad luck as coaching.
so you're saying that joe moore is the only distance runner from ksu with the right attitude and good luck?
Wyco Loco wrote:
Just look at all this great talent we've lost in the last 10 years.
Scott Loftin - Rice - 1:54, 4:12 1600, 9:16 3200
Justin Rempel - Tulsa - 1:53, 4:13 1600
Ryan Wilson - Texas - Steeple stud, 4:19, 9:26
Matt Noonan - Missouri
Derek Tate - Ok State
Tucker Weems - Ok State - 2-time XC champ & runner-up as Soph
Lane Boyer - Arkansas - 4:15 1600, 9:06 2 mile
Amy Hastings - Arizona State
Amanda Pape - Georgetown
Trisa Nikoley - Missouri - 2:06 800 & good XC runner
Mallory Champa - Boston College
Layne Moore - Missouri - 2:12 800
Alyshia Valencia - Michigan
Looks like Kansas State and Wichita State also lost out on these athletes. Sometimes kids just want to go someplace different, at least my son did.
Wyco Loco wrote:
Just look at all this great talent we've lost in the last 10 years.
Scott Loftin - Rice - 1:54, 4:12 1600, 9:16 3200
Justin Rempel - Tulsa - 1:53, 4:13 1600
Ryan Wilson - Texas - Steeple stud, 4:19, 9:26
Matt Noonan - Missouri
Derek Tate - Ok State
Tucker Weems - Ok State - 2-time XC champ & runner-up as Soph
Lane Boyer - Arkansas - 4:15 1600, 9:06 2 mile
Amy Hastings - Arizona State
Amanda Pape - Georgetown
Trisa Nikoley - Missouri - 2:06 800 & good XC runner
Mallory Champa - Boston College
Layne Moore - Missouri - 2:12 800
Alyshia Valencia - Michigan
Looks like Kansas State and Wichita State also lost out on these athletes. Sometimes kids just want to go someplace different, at least my son did.[/quote]
what ever happened to some of those athletes?[
just an example of one. Do you want a list?
unknowing wrote:
what ever happened to some of those athletes?[
Here's what I could find, some may have better stats.
Scott Loftin - Rice - 3:48, 8:11, NCAA XC individual qualifier
Justin Rempel - Tulsa - 3:45,
Ben Houltberg - Oral Roberts - 1:48, 4:06, 10th place USATF indoor
Derek Tate - Ok State - 4:07 mile, 14:09
Matt Noonan - Missouri - 3:47, 8:53 steeple, 3rd place MW region XC, 90th at Nationals.
Amy Hastings - Arizona State - American collegiate indoor 5000 record - 15:30 - 10-time All-american
Amanda Pape - Georgetown - 4:31, 9:31
Ryan Wilson - Texas - 8:54 Steeple, a Sr this year.
Trisa Nikoley - Missouri - 3-time big 12 champ, a SR this year
Mallory Champa - Boston College - XC All-American (38th) as a Soph, a Jr this year.
there's also Ben Orozco
KU didn't have any money to give to frosh this year. Lets take a look at some of the kids on the team outside of distance...
Egor Agafonov - National Champion in Weight
Barrett Saunders - 5th at NCAA Outdoor in LJ
Colby Wissel - All American XC, Indoor
Paul Hefferon - All American XC, Outdoor
Julius Jiles - All American Hurdler
Josh Kirk - NJCAA All American Multi
Jack Sachse - All Big XII as freshmen in 800
Matt Baysinger - 5x all big XII, regional qualifier
Kirk Cooper - Regional Qualified as Freshmen, PV
Patrick McGowan - Regional qualified in 2007
Jordan Scott - USA Junior Champ, 18'2 PV as a freshmen
Agafonov (sp), Saunders, Wissel, Hefferon, Jiles, Kirk, and Baysinger are all seniors. They are going to have a lot of money open up for next year, and I would expect them to bring in some talent.
Also, somebody already pointed out a few of the people KU has developed.
Joshy Madathil, from Liberal, KS went from an above average high schooler to a 1:51, 3:47, 4:04, 2:55 (1200) runner.
Baysinger, Kansas City, has spent his life in Hefferon's shadow (they went to the same school), and was a 2:00/49.4 guy in high school and has run 1:49
Hefferon was a 4:19 miler, and is now a 13:59 5K
Kirk went to Olathe South, Jiles is from Kansas City as well, and Sachse was one of the best 800m freshmen in the country last year.
Just because they are not entirely focusing on Distance does not mean they are not getting it done.
I would not put it past them to be a top 5 team come NCAA outdoors.
[Also, don't forget that Wissel was born in Kansas! =) ]