cant seem to get under 18:45, advice

Bump up the time running a bit...you can even do stuff on the elliptical to supplement things when you go to the weight room (like an extra 30 minutes or longer before or after your weight routine; I am assuming you do this since you were a sprinter). On top of that for your 'tempo' try going longer. If you build up to a harder effort of 35-45 minutes, after 3-4 months you will feel a lot stronger. This might mean you have to slow it down a bit, and that is ok. You should go by feel anyhow. This coupled with what you are doing already (long repeats, good long run, strides, etc..) should really help you in the strength dept, which it sounds like you might need to work on a bit. If you have time after or during a run a couple of times a week try 4-6*200 at 3000 pace with maybe 1:30 recovery. This will aide turnover as well something you will need to maintain in the last mile of a 5k.

I am sure a bunch of people will want you to run 70-100 mile weeks (which I think is a good idea if you are that committed --> it helped me get quite a bit faster), but I realize that many people don't have the time or inclination to do it. Anyhow...hope this helps and that you get under 18:45 in the next 3 months or so.

Mike

By the way your 10:39 for 3000m translates into about 18:35 for 5km, so you are not far off. The slippage in performance as you race longer is an indication of poor aerobic conditioning. You might want to run more miles per week and run them faster.

Also try running some longer reps at say 18:30 pace for a change so you can get used to race pace, say 3 X 1mile in 6:00 with 4min rest, or 5 X 1km in 3:30-3:40 with 3min rest.

4:50 for 1600m rates to quite a bit better than your 3k and 5k times, so you clearly need the tempo runs at a faster pace and the long intervals as in the above post. I was stuck for quite awhile during my 'comeback' at just over 19 for 5k, even for months after getting my mileage up to 60-70/week, but my time dropped then by 2 minutes in the month after I started doing 3-6 mile tempo runs, initially at 6:10-6:20 and quickly dropping below 6. running with a group, as I did, will really help with the tempos.

Telling a former sprinter w/ 450 1600m fitness to up his miles for an 1845 5k is just plain ridiculous, almost cruel and unusual punishment.

How bout this instead:

Make the goals < 18 5000 < 440 1600 and <1:30 600m?

Cap your runs at 30' and focus on getting more tempo. No snail jogging as though you are chained, cause this comeback isn't Cool Hand Luke. Add the faster running in burst of 3-5' and give yourself some walking recovery breaks. My guess is you'll be a lot happier running faster anyway.

Get back to the track and get your speed back too. Don't think you have to do granny jogging to be a good distance runner. Anything that gets you faster over 1600m is gonna help your 5k. Like building a railroad, eventually the speed and stamina will converge, and your 5k pace will be a gear that feels comfortable.

Down the road you can run more if you care to, but for now just have fun with the speed and getting back into shape. A lot of former sprinters end up doing well in the middle distances, but they usually work their way up from the speed side.

Start by losing some weight. That will help alot

How is his speed and stamina ever going to converge if he never works on his stamina?

His speed is already plenty good to go well under 18 as his 1600 time indicates. You recommendation will do little to nothing to help him maintain this speed over 3.1 miles, and in all likelihood will wind up making him stale and injured in fairly short order.

Fortunately alot of other posters have issued sound advice about adding a longer tempo run and extending the time of the other runs. He would be wise to listen to them and avoid your advice if he wishes to bring down his 5K times.

Try this for a month and report back:

> Run the last 2-3 miles of your long run at tempo pace

> Do the long intervals as mentioned above. In my opinion, you don't have to run them at goal race pace to improve your aerobic stamina. Try running 4-5*1000 at 8k to 10k pace with a max. of 2 min. rest. This will be less taxing and more sustainable for long term training.

> Run the rest of the days easy with a few striders thrown in to keep in touch with your speed. Try to run EVERY day, even if it is only for 30 minutes of jogging on the days you planned to take off

> Try to run even splits in your races. You don't mention it but I suspect you run your first mile too fast.

Good luck!

Denver,

We're talking about a former sprinter here, not the typical long distance runner who can't leave the ground without a rocket pack.

ST and FT muscle respond differently to various tempos in training, with the FT muscle adapting best with faster speeds, less volume, and intermittent work. What I'm suggesting he do is work in gears he will both enjoy and benefit more from versus training like everyone else he sees out there jogging like zombies, more fearful of blood lactate than the Ebola virus.

You assume a lack of stamina because he slows. This is incorrect. He may have trouble with the slower paces precisely because they are so slow. Sprinters often bound more then run when asked to run a slow speed. And for a former college sprinter, 6 pace is slow. 8 pace is like a nightmare.

Speed and stamina are not separate entities, but rather interconnected. Training them is not like choosing between Thousand Island or vinaigrette at the salad bar.

When I say speed and stamina will converge, I mean that by progressing along with the training that suits him best, he'll find that sustaining 5k speed becomes more manageable, simply because he is now able to race in gears fast enough to feel more natural to him.

Denver,

We're talking about helping a former sprinter here, not the typical long distance runner who can't leave the ground without a rocket pack.

ST and FT muscle respond differently to various tempos in training, with the FT muscle adapting best with faster speeds, less volume, and intermittent work. What I'm suggesting he do is work in gears he will both enjoy and benefit more from versus training like everyone else he sees out there jogging like zombies, more fearful of blood lactate than the Ebola virus.

You assume a lack of stamina because he slows. This is incorrect. He may have trouble with the slower paces precisely because they are so slow. Sprinters often bound more than run when asked to run a slow speed. And for a former college sprinter, 6 pace is slow. 8 pace is like a nightmare.

Speed and stamina are not separate entities, but rather interconnected. Training them is not like choosing between Thousand Island or vinaigrette at the salad bar.

When I say speed and stamina will converge, I mean that by progressing along with the training that suits his physiology best, he'll find that sustaining 5k speed becomes more manageable, simply because he is now able to race in gears fast enough to feel more natural to him.

Saturday was a medium run about 10k worth and Sunday was about an 1:15. Monday was 10k easy in the woods where my team runs their xc races (I'm not the distance coach) and today I did 5x1000 on a long flat hard packed sand trail and I would just jog back to my start line in about 5:40 - these were done in 3:35, 3:40, 3:42, 3:42, 3:30. Wish I had noticed the post about shorter rest between the 1000's

For the intervals i found that I was running better times if I shortened my stride although I really may have just been picking up the intensity a bit.

When you guys run a race do you find that you run faster times at the beginning or at the end? Maybe the first 2.5k vs the 2nd. running a 400 you are basically taught to run your opening 200 at a controllable pace, but the first two is always much faster. same with a 200 for the first 50 and really pushing the next 100 and close as best you can.

i think my last 3 5ks i went out somewhere between 5:40-6 and i always came through my 2 mile between 12-12:15. my last one I made a point to go out in six and come back in 12:15, which i did, but still finished at 19:04.

I really appreciate the advice.

This has been very interesting so far.

Seems to me like you are very close to your potential of 18:30. If your actual splits were 6:00, 6:15, 6:15, (:34) , then you actually picked up the pace at some point after the 2nd mile, and that's a decently paced- fairly even effort.

I don't know what your 18:45 went like, but I imagine it was 5:50, 6:10, 6:10 (35).

If you are running at least 40 miles per week, I would run 3 days @ 8 to 10 miles of long slow distance (progressive pace, maybe start at 8 to 7 min. pace and work down to close to 6 for the last mile) and 1 day of intervals (like your 1000s) and one day of a hard tempo (1 mile warm up, 4 miles hard (6:15 to 6:00) and 1 mile cool down). And for kicks, you should go out one day and run really long- at least 12 miles, and see how you pace yourself.

I ENTIRELY AGREE WITH DSRUNNER.

Primarily doing change-of-pace running should be the OP's focus. And generally speaking, he should prefer walking breaks rather than snail's-pace jogs.

I ENTIRELY AGREE WITH DSRUNNER.

Primarily doing change-of-pace running should be the OP's focus. And generally speaking, he should prefer walking breaks rather than snail's-pace jogs.

"Down the road you can run more if you care to, but for now just have fun with the speed and getting back into shape. A lot of former sprinters end up doing well in the middle distances, but they usually work their way up from the speed side." Exactly!

tell me somethingif you couldn't break 19 in the 5khow in the hell could you do 3 to 6 mile tempo runs at 6:10 to 6:20 pace??you do your tempo runs at faster than 5k pace and for longer than a 5k??

jonesy wrote:

4:50 for 1600m rates to quite a bit better than your 3k and 5k times, so you clearly need the tempo runs at a faster pace and the long intervals as in the above post. I was stuck for quite awhile during my 'comeback' at just over 19 for 5k, even for months after getting my mileage up to 60-70/week, but my time dropped then by 2 minutes in the month after I started doing 3-6 mile tempo runs, initially at 6:10-6:20 and quickly dropping below 6. running with a group, as I did, will really help with the tempos.

I think you're really just suffering from lack of focus. As a former sprinter you're doing intervals, intervals, intervals. I recommend you step back a bit and concentrate on consistency

First off pull back to TWO hard runs a week, the other 3-4 run easy. Save things for the days that count. Over a two week period do intervals, long, intervals, tempo. Also, forget everything you learned about running a 400. This is a 5000, totally different animal. Long should be 1:15-1:30. Tempo about 1:00, 15 warm up, 30 up-tempo, 15 easy.

Next, it's pretty clear you go you hard, cough up a furball, then try to hang on. Bad way to run a 5K. You go out in 6, come back in 6:15, bad pacing. So get to a track and or other well measured distance and do 1000's to 1200's (5-6 of then at a time) and CONCENTRATE on running them all very close to the same pace. If that means you have to run them slower, so be it. No lolly-gagging around between repeats either, you need to learn to hold pace so keep the rest to 2:30-3:00 on the 1000-1200's.

Practice your goal pace, so after you can pace consistently switch the tempo to 2 miles at goal pace following by 15 minutes up-tempo (same WU / CD).

Remember recovery is when you improve, so push hard on the hard days and give your body time to absorb that on the easy days. You can't push the envelope when you're tired, so keep the recovery days 30-60 minutes of easy. Real easy.

Won't happen overnight, but in 6-8 weeks you should be around 18:30.

need some help wrote:

Saturday was a medium run about 10k worth and Sunday was about an 1:15. Monday was 10k easy in the woods where my team runs their xc races (I'm not the distance coach) and today I did 5x1000 on a long flat hard packed sand trail and I would just jog back to my start line in about 5:40 - these were done in 3:35, 3:40, 3:42, 3:42, 3:30. Wish I had noticed the post about shorter rest between the 1000's

I'll just reiterate that I don't think you have to run the 1000s at faster than goal pace (3:40 pace = 18:20). Try them at 3:50-3:55 pace with a max of 2 minutes rest. They should be comfortably taxing and not the gut busters you're probably used to running in sprint workouts. If you do these weekly for a month or two you will notice improved stamina.

dsrunner wrote:

... with FT muscle adapting best with faster speeds, less volume, and intermittent work ...

Adapting in what way? That is the question. The work suggested above will certainly strengthen the FT fibers in their ability to be explosive and powerful for short distances. This will do wonders for 400 speed, and maybe even 1600 times, but will leave our friend in serious pain over 5000 meters.

Ask yourself - what is my bottleneck? Is it my power or my endurance? What is needed is to be able to use his FT fibers' natural strength more effciently over a long(er) period of time. With careful long work at slower than 5K paces, short recoveries on any harder work, and enough miles (I'd lengthen long run to 90 minutes, for example), certain FT fibers can begin to behave more like ST fibers - mopping up the lactate as it is produced, allowing you to sustain higher speeds over longer distances.

again, he needs a base- plenty of long slow distance- to develop the aerobic systems. I realize it is summer racing season, but stepping back and taking it easy for a few weeks and racking up a lot of easy miles might be the most prudent thing right now.

So its been about six weeks and I took a lot of the advice from the folks that were pushing longer runs to help with the aerobic fitness.

I think I put one day in of some mile repeats on a field and the rest were longer runs and overall I was probably pushing 55 miles a week. Mixed in a few runs that were sort of up tempo (starting slower and building up to faster pace), a few two a days.

This past thursday I ran 2x5000 at 20 flat each time, these felt really easy and comfortable. Sunday ran a half marathon in 1:29, starting off the first 4 miles at 7:10 each and progressively dropped after that and closing with two 6:30's. next 5k will be a cross country in two weeks and one on the roads two weeks after.