The only true sources of energy for muscle contraction which can be described as Anaerobic, are the stored Phosphates which last approximately six seconds at the start of an effort. After that, all energy systems are Aerobic, including the use of Lactate as a muscle fuel.
Whatever you may have read or heard to the contrary is wrong, and just plain bad science.
It's about time this confusion was rectified, so that people involved in all sports can be given better training advice.
If I ran 100 meters while holding my breath would that be anaerobic?
Most runners can run 100m holding their breath, so the first six seconds would be anaerobic, and the rest of the run would be aerobic use of lactate.
wellnow wrote:
The only true sources of energy for muscle contraction which can be described as Anaerobic, are the stored Phosphates which last approximately six seconds at the start of an effort. After that, all energy systems are Aerobic, including the use of Lactate as a muscle fuel.
Whatever you may have read or heard to the contrary is wrong, and just plain bad science.
It's about time this confusion was rectified, so that people involved in all sports can be given better training advice.
Boy it's a good thing we have you around to tell us.... well... what we've already known for decades now!
Phew! wrote:
wellnow wrote:The only true sources of energy for muscle contraction which can be described as Anaerobic, are the stored Phosphates which last approximately six seconds at the start of an effort. After that, all energy systems are Aerobic, including the use of Lactate as a muscle fuel.
Whatever you may have read or heard to the contrary is wrong, and just plain bad science.
It's about time this confusion was rectified, so that people involved in all sports can be given better training advice.
Boy it's a good thing we have you around to tell us.... well... what we've already known for decades now!
You mean you agree? But it's total bull$hit. It's common knowledge that lactic acid accumulation causes us to go anerobic. Once that process starts, you are not long for that pace.
No it's not bullshit. You aren't seeing his point. He's objecting to the loose use of the word "anaerobic". Literally that word means "without oxygen". But even when lactate begins accumulating rapidly, the fuels we are using all require oxygen. Even lactate requires oxygen to be cleared.
The difference is that the fuels our body resorts to (e.g. glycogen) require LESS oxygen to burn than fat.
So when we say "anaerobic" what we mean is we've reached a state in which oxygen + fat cannot supply the energy we need, and so oxygen + glycogen becomes a big part of the picture. Either way, oxygen is playing a central role.
And again, this is nothing new. The term "anaerobic" itself is used loosely. The OP needs to get over it.
neither such thing as anaerobic nor aerobic
Maybe you understand it, but most runners and coaches and those who write articles and texts believe that "going anaerobic" is something to fear in training and in racing, when in fact, they should be testing themselves regularly to see how long they can last at very fast paces.
yes, but wrote:
Maybe you understand it, but most runners and coaches and those who write articles and texts believe that "going anaerobic" is something to fear in training and in racing, when in fact, they should be testing themselves regularly to see how long they can last at very fast paces.
It is something to be avoided in racing because the lactate accumulation will degrade your race performance. It is something to be avoided in those workouts designed to keep you just below the threshold. Whether you call it, "going aerobic" or "staying below the lactate threshold", the meaning is generally understood these days.
wellnow wrote:
After that, all energy systems are Aerobic, including the use of Lactate as a muscle fuel.
Whatever you may have read or heard to the contrary is wrong, and just plain bad science.
wellnow, you are plain wrong and plainly unfamiliar with basic metabolic biochemistry.
The end product of glycolysis is lactate. Mitochondria can directly metabolize lactate or its precursor for energy via the TCA cycle. For mitochondria to utilize lactate directly, mitochondrial lactate dehydrogenase (MLDH) converts imported lactate into pyruvate first.
Production of lactate can indeed outpace the ability of mitochondria uptake and metabolize lactate hence the accumulation of blood lactate with intense exercise. Under these conditions active glycolysis is still producing ATP and therefore energy. Because this energy production does not acutely require oxygen it is aptly termed anaerobic.
I am not sure what your background is. Please describe and I would be happy to write at a level suitable to your background.
Also, if you wish to refute my argument, please provide a detailed description of the biochemical model you support and describe how that model refutes what I have written. You should also cite the sources to back up your model.
Phoenix
Phoenix wrote:
I am not sure what your background is. Please describe and I would be happy to write at a level suitable to your background.
I have a Ph.D. in exercise physiology and a M.S. in applied kinesiology. You're not on my level. Sorry to deflate your balloon.
so then why don't you do the other things that he asks ... explain the model you're using, let's hear you actually refute his point. pompous a-hole.
To convert lactate OR glycogen into energy, oxygen is required. Not as much as is required to convert fat into energy but some.
wellnow wrote:
Phoenix wrote:I am not sure what your background is. Please describe and I would be happy to write at a level suitable to your background.
I have a Ph.D. in exercise physiology and a M.S. in applied kinesiology. You're not on my level. Sorry to deflate your balloon.
To wellnow,
On a current Gerry Lindgren thread, you stated:
"I don't believe in physical talent, 99% of runners have physical talent, but mental talent is extremely rare."
Given your superior "level," perhaps you could tell us what you are basing this on from a scientific viewpoint. A corollary to your statement is that Lindgren and Ryun were endowed with a rare mental talent rather than with extraordinary physical talent. And that since they were both much faster in high school than malmo, malmo was not on their level mentally.
I also happen to have a PhD--in physiology specializing in metabolic signaling and biochemisty.
Since you have a PhD, then you should be able to provide rigorous, evidence-based refutation of my argument.
I'm waiting.
Rising wrote:
To convert lactate OR glycogen into energy, oxygen is required. Not as much as is required to convert fat into energy but some.
You are correct.
However, remember that the production of lactate via glycolysis generates ATP.
Phoenix wrote:
You are correct.
However, remember that the production of lactate via glycolysis generates ATP.
Yes. That's "adenosine triphosphate" or something close to that, right? (Unlike you guys, I am a complete amateur at this). And as I understand it, ATP is the immediate energy source.
So roughly speaking (very roughly), as I understand it
glycogen + oxygen --> ATP and lactate
Then lactate + oxygen --> more ATP
And the reason that these processes start up in earnest at faster paces is that far fewer oxygen molecules are required to make the same amount of ATP.
About right?
Rising wrote:
Phoenix wrote:You are correct.
However, remember that the production of lactate via glycolysis generates ATP.
Yes. That's "adenosine triphosphate" or something close to that, right? (Unlike you guys, I am a complete amateur at this). And as I understand it, ATP is the immediate energy source.
So roughly speaking (very roughly), as I understand it
glycogen + oxygen --> ATP and lactate
Then lactate + oxygen --> more ATP
And the reason that these processes start up in earnest at faster paces is that far fewer oxygen molecules are required to make the same amount of ATP.
About right?
No, completely wrong.
Glycogen --> glucose --> lactate and ATP (anaerobic)
or
Glycogen --> glucose --> lactate and ATP --> pyruvate + oxygen --> CO2 and lots more ATP (aerobic)
Both pathways are always functioning to some extent, so it is false to say you are aerobic or anaerobic exclusively. However one pathway or the other can predominate. Anaerobic respiration can only continue to a certain point before fatigue occurs.....the percentage you are operating over the threshhold where you are no longer clearing lactate dictates how long this will be. Not that lactate necessarily is directly causing the fatigue, but its level is correlated with the onset of fatigue.
TRY to learn something before acting like you know something and arguing with someone like Phoenix who actually knows what he's talking about. Lactate cannot be metabolized without oxygen, so if you're low on oxygen under heavy exercise you are not using it for a fuel source. It is only after oxygen levels increase with decreased/ceased activity that lactate will be recycled as fuel.
spaniel wrote:
TRY to learn something before acting like you know something and arguing with someone like Phoenix who actually knows what he's talking about. Lactate cannot be metabolized without oxygen, so if you're low on oxygen under heavy exercise you are not using it for a fuel source. It is only after oxygen levels increase with decreased/ceased activity that lactate will be recycled as fuel.
Was this addressed to me? I was not arguing with Phoenix whatsoever. I was ASKING him.
And since I was "completely wrong" (quite an accomplishment to be COMPLETELY wrong, didn't know I had it in me), what exactly is ATP then?