I need some help

I can relate. My final year of college was a complete wreck. I ran some good races my junior year (26:0something 3-4 times) and was looking to be in the mi 25s. After a good summer of 70-80 mile weeks I came in ready to roll. After the first couple of races, however, I began to crumble. It seemed that the harder I tried, the worse I got; to the point where I just accepted that each race was going to be a failure. I probably worked out for the best, because as my running went into the crapper, my academics started to swing upward.

I've not been much help thus far, ey?

OK, the reason I replied is that I've thought a lot about my final season of XC in the years that came after it. Basically I think it was a combination of mental and physical burn out. I just didn't want to race anymore. I hated to travel, I hated speed workouts, I hated pratice, I hated the routine. What I needed was a break. A time to do things differently. Perhaps I could have run on my own for a while, not run at all for a while, or a combination thereof. I needed to get away from it, recharge the batteries and hopefully come back ready to go.

After my career was done, I did just that -- I got away. I found that I couldn't stay away, and before I knew it, I was running competitivly again. I re-discovered why I ran, and why I loved to run. Although I didn't train for the 5 and 10k, I was coming close to my PRs. I was running PRs in the 1/2 marathon and 15k.

I realized that I was fryed when I remembered how I felt before my races that senior year. I remember never getting nervous. To most runners, that sounds odd. Indeed, most of us get buggs before the race -- its natural. I knew I was not a runner when I didn't care about the race or how I did in it.

OK, I rambled for a bit. I don't know if this is of any help.

How old is this "kid?"

It sounds like he's overtrained, and needs to rest. Maybe a lot, given that this has been going on a year now.

I was thinking the same thing - overtraining.

Is he getting easy, recovery runs in?

Far from overtrained. He is at about 60 mpw. He goes easy on easy days. He was at about 45 mpw in the summer. Last year (i was not his coach) he went 27 min to 33 at the end then got to track and ran 19 min 5k's. It seems like he is ready to roll, and you talk to him and he is fine.

There are many reasons why this "kid" can suddenly be underperforming, but one thing is for sure, when a runner goes from a 5.20 first mile to a 5.50 second mile and follows this with a 6.50 third mile, his legs are just flooding with lactic acid... In fact he TELLS you that with his remark about tired and heavy quads.

The question is now; why should that be happening when he used to race faster?

You say some things without really explaining them:

1. Your "kid" can run "27 and change for 5 miles". When did he do this? I ask, because a year ago his problems started. Has he never run well since then? Was he running 27.xx two years ago? How old is this "kid"?

2. You say his bloodwork is "fine". What does that mean to you? What precisely did you test for? Your non-running GP told you it was fine?

3. He goes "easy on easy days". How do you define easy? Do you take his word for it? Does he wear an HRM? Do you know his easy running pace? Is it 2 mins/mile slower than his 5k pace? Do you know his morning resting HR?

Here's a question. Can he still run close to his 800m and 1500m PR's, and it is just his 2 mile and up performances that are suffering? If the answer is yes...

Prima facie; the guy is not well-trained aerobically (although he WAS, when running 27.xx). He is doing more miles now (more DOES NOT MEAN better), but doing them too fast for optimal development. And someone added too much fast running on top of this insufficent aerobic base. Bad knee-jerk reaction: if someone is not racing fast enough, give them more speed training.

Advice: Immediately give him 3 days off with no exercise of any kind. Pay more attention to all his running paces and just get him on long slow miles for a few weeks with no fast intense running at all. From now on give him at least one day off every week. Watch his HR on his easy runs (it shouldn't climb more than a few beats after the first 15 mins) and record his morning pulse. If it ever climbs more than 8 beats from normal (normal 45-47, today 53), he is threatening over-training. In short; learn more about your runner.

If this doesn't result in recovery/improvement (he doesn't have to go back to 27.xx, at the moment sub-29.xx would be an improvement), more rare stuff to think about (but really, exhaust the aerobic development/over-training route first).

1. he's allergic/asthmatic (hay fever) at this time of the year and does not realise this at slow paces and is only bothered by it as he approaches VO2max.

2. he is consuming (eating / drinking) something that is bothering him. I had a very recent case where a 2.45 marathoner just went off the boil. Could not keep his HR down to his normal 130 on his easy runs (always 140+ at the usual pace), and lost 10 secs/mile in a 10k race. Since this happened suddenly (within 3 weeks), we were able to compare differences in lifestyle to before/after and pin it down to the addition of B complex vitamins he had just begun taking. He was reacting to the yeast in them and by cutting them out for one week, he was back to normal. He now takes Yeast-free vits.

I would seriously focus on the training route before resorting to more rare, but still possible, reasons for his drop in performance. Gather as much info as you can and the cause will often present itself.

He is 20. He ran the 27:40 last year this time. After that race (i was not his coach) he continually got slower. I can't see how he is overtrained he runs about 2min per mile slower then 5k pace on easy days. His Dr. said he needed to start taking Iron Supplements (2 weeks ago). He has been taking them.

OK, here's a more direct suggestion: do you have access to a sports psyc. person of any brand. I know it sound odd, but these guys/gals can really help. Sometimes we burn our brains constructing physical reasons why someone isn't running well when, all along, something deeper is keeping the wheels from spinning...

As 'The Matrix' has taught us: "Free your mind"

Can you give us more information?

An example training week? 800/1600/3200 PRs ? Example of intensity of track work?

It is possible to get overtrained on very low mileage. All you have to do is get the intensity wrong too often. If he is running eyeballs-out track sessions, even only twice per week, it will not really matter HOW slow he goes on the easy days.

No need to keep explaining that "you were not coaching him" at the time. No-one's getting at you. We are trying to help. With a bit more information we can really nail it for you.

Answer these:

1. 400/800/1600/3200 PRs (or nearest race distances)

2. Breakdown of normal training week in terms of hard/easy days and days off.

3. Example of normal track session, including paces and recovery times.

4. Racing frequency (if you think it will have a bearing).

Shouldn't be too hard to provide these.

I always believe that staleness is always caused by too much intensity too often (note that intensity can be too fast or too long or both). And you better believe many people on here could overtrain you on 40mpw just by (deliberately) getting the intensity wrong for YOU.

Hadd,

I'm sorry I did not mean to sound like I was taking offense, I had forgot that I mentioned i didn't coach him earlier. I am 100% willing to take advice and criticism.

anyway:

Summer training (he was running about 50mpw)this is coming off a track season where he ran some awful times. I am not the track coach and was not involved with him then. I just recently got the Xc job (aug). He ran awful races last xc season as well after his good 27:40.

Typical week: Mon: 60-65 min easy run 4 x100 strides

Tues: 4-6 x 800 m hill run at about 5k pace jog down rec. (10 miles total this day) Wed: 60-70 steady run Thurs: easy 50-60 minrun Friday: 6 mile Tempo run (his pace was 6:10 he ran 37:30 looked fine) Saturday: Rest Sunday: 90 min run easy

It seems he is going slow on easy days. I have run with him and we a trotting. I have also been monitoring the intensity of"hard days" they have not been balls to the wall. He has been at about 60mpw the first 3 weeks this season (maybe not good to up miles even though summer miles were so low, b/c adding workouts?)

400:pr ? 800: ? 1600: 4:30's 5k: 16:10 8k: 27:42

Could you explain to me how you would adjust recovery times throughout the season. If pace is faster than race pace (ex:12-15x400 3k-5kpace) what whould you do for rec? On the other hand if you are going pace work (ex: 5x1600) what are your thoughts on recovery?

What are your thoughts on a typical week with a race and without? I have my ideas and plans but I am curious as to what you would do with a week (50-60mpw guys I had no say in what the summer miles should be b/c I did not have the job yet). What would you do in a race week?

Thanks again Hadd and I apologize for coming across offended.

Maybe this problem is psychological?

I am interested in hearing about this kid as well. i have a kid in the same boat.

Hey runr, no need to apologise to me for anything. I was just pointing out that you were coming across somewhat "defensive". No need to feel that way.

Here's an axiom to live by: if your athlete is not able to perform as you expect, you do no harm by backing off on all intensity and doing purely easy aerobic running until you discover the cause. The performances of a well-aerobically-trained runner do not go "down a hole" for nothing. If he is not well-trained aerobically his performaces can plummet very quickly in the season.

Right now, I would be doing the above with your runner. Just lots of easy miles.

Up front, although there doesn't seem to be too much wrong in the example week you give (except for Tues, which I'll get into), I still maintain that you should be doing more to learn how easy/difficult each type of run is for your athlete.

I would slap a HRM on him and go for one of his "easy" runs with him. If his pulse climbs above say 150, it's no longer easy.

Same with the steady run. Find out how tough that is not simply by running with him (the pace might be a holiday for you), but by getting an HRM on him. I would even have lactate tested him, but there is no need for you to feel you need to go that far. Knowing his HR should tell you all you need to know.

Go by this; it's simple and very effective.

Find his max HR by warming him up for 20 mins with a couple of 100m strides then giving him 2 x 800m hard with only 3 mins recovery. He is to drive the last 400m of the second one for all he is worth. The highest number he sees on the HRM you can take as his HR max.

Then do this:

Easy running is Max HR - 50 bpm (eg: 200-50 = 150 or less. Never higher.)

Medium running is Max HR - 40 bpm (eg: 200 - 40 = 160 or less. Never higher.)

Tempo running is MaxHR - 30 bpm (never higher).

I am confident that your guy is not running this easy. So his easy days are more likely turning into medium days. That, plus the tempo/interval days is driving him into the ground.

Let's consider those harder days. When an athlete runs on a treadmill, it is customary to elevate the treadmill some 1-2% to compensate for the lack of headwind in the gym/lab and more closely simulate normal outdoor running conditions. When a runner is doing a VO2max test, it is also usual for the treadmill to be elevated by a certain amount in each of the latter stages to help the athlete reach a VO2 peak.

So a runner might get to 6.00m/m on a flat treadmill, then 5.30m/m, then 5.00m/m, and then if he has still not reached max, the treadmill speed will be reduced to 6.00m/m but the end of the treadmill will be raised by 4%. Then 6% (for around 1 min 45 secs each stage) then 8% and so on.

The point I would like to make is that although a 4% elevation does not look like much, it FEELS like it to the runner. In fact, 6.00m/m @ 4% is every bit as difficult as 5.00m/m on the flat. A 6.00m/m pace on the flat that might cost the runner 145 HR, can require 20 beats more (165) when running up a 4% incline.

Now anything that you term a "hill" is more than 4% incline. If it was a 4% incline, you would not term it a hill. So, bearing in mind what I have just explained, what do you think is the actual cost to your runner of sending him 800m up this hill at what would be 5k pace on the flat? Very likely he is hitting max HR long before the top of every rep. And he does six of them. Bad news.

This is then followed by a "steady" run the next day (which I believe is actually being done more intensely than it should be, it should be an absolute JOG after those hill reps the day before), and then a "tempo" run two days after that.

This is a tough week: Tues / Wed / Fri all hard to a certain extent, especially if his easy is not easy.

If he is training at the right intensity on all his runs and recovering in between, then this is not too tough a week. If he gets the intensity wrong even a little, or just doesn't recover from one day to the next, he can get into a downward spiral that is tough to pull out of. That's when his performances suffer. Which is where you are right now.

Get a HRM on him and see how "hard" he is training every day. I have given you HR guidelines to follow. Get him on them and he will soon recover. Make a point of understanding the relevance of each training pace to HIM. How much is it costing HIM (and don't compare him to what others are doing).

A number of other posters here suggest the problem might be psychological. I don't believe so. Of course it can become psychological if his physical condition deteriorates to such an extent that he gets to a state where he "cannot face" another tough session or a race. But the underlying cause is physical, not mental. Understand that overtraining causes a number of physical problems; altered mood, altered sleep pattern, upset digestion, reduced immune system... It is easy to see how anyone with such problems would not be able to perform to his/her best in a race, and indeed, not look forward to racing, but the cause is physical, not mental.

In the end, you know the runner, and can answer better than we can.

Now to go on to your other questions on speeds and recovery...

Mark Wetmore apparently said in a recent interview that coaches should try and learn as much Ex Physiology as possible. I recommend you follow his advice as much as you can.

Instead of wondering about paces for reps and length of recovery, you need to understand what each type of run is trying to achieve. If you understand that the body has to adapt (change in some way) in order for the runner to improve, then what part are you trying to "change" with repeat 400s? With a tempo run? With a long run?

I'm not being coy, hiding some sort of "secrets" from you. But a simple question such as "how much recovery" can involve so many variables that it would be rash of me to quip "45 secs jog" and off you go to implement it.

For reps of longer than 2-3 minutes (up to 6-8 mins), you are trying to improve aerobic capacity. IF THERE HAS BEEN ENOUGH AEROBIC BASE TRAINING these are carried out at paces from 3000-HM. The length of the recovery is not vital. Just ensure the HR is back to around 125-130 before the next run. Sessions such as 2 x 3000, 3-4 x 2000 or 4 x 1600 or 6 x 1000m are all common. The longer runs are obviously slower. If the athlete is finding these easier in a few weeks, DO NOT run them any faster, just lengthen the run.

For shorter 400-type reps, there can be 2 types: slower pace with shorter active recoveries and faster pace with more complete recovery. In the first, you do not want to let the heart completely recover to 120, but should jog 100m and go again once it drops to around 140-145. Pace might be 3000m pace.

The second type will be faster but with more complete recovery when the object will be to improve tolerance to the rising blood and muscle acidity associated with race pace. This will be performed mid-to-late season.

But none of this will be of any value if the athlete is not properly aerobically prepared. Read anything you can find on Lydiard for some fundamentals on aerobic conditioning, and then make sure they are being applied correctly for this (and other) athlete(s).

Hope this helps.

Damn, I have got to give up these long posts!

Hadd, that was an excellent post. Sharing this kind of information is what this board is all about... Thanks...

Hadd,

Thank you for your info.

I am doing workouts as such:

One day: MOn harder repeats(3k-5k) with equal recovery (2-4min) (10 x 2 min with 2 min rest)

Tuesday: easy run

Wednesday: a repeat session (8kpace)(1-10min in length with short recovery)(ie: 2 x 6-3-2 with 1-1:30 rec)

Thusday: Easy run or Steady run

Friday: easy run

Sat: Race

Sun: long

What do you think about repeats at race pace once a week (8k) with shorter recovery. With a workout of harder reps at 3k-5k with longer recovery. And an occasional (3-5 x a season Hi intensity full recovery workout? Do you think I should do steady runs following workouts? Also if we are racing do I run 2 workouts (1 hard reps 1 8k reps before the race?

Thank you Hadd you have been a serious help.

Hadd

great info.

Aight, I have been in a similar situation for the past couple of years. I think i have pretty much taken care of my problem. I was actually drinking too much water on race day and the day before and flushing out the minerals and electrolytes. Because I was drinking so much water (2 gallons a day) I would fill myself up and not be able to eat much food. The lack of food causes a lack in glycogen which is the only source of energy your brain uses. When your body is low on it your brain consumes it instead of allowing the muscles too. This causes your legs to feel heavy. I never really felt bad during my races I just couldn't go any faster and was just not mentally into it. I now make sure that I eat before I drink many liquids and I try to aviod water and have Gatorade and juices (the extra calories also help) I have also started taking a multivitamins.

One other thing i noticed was the the the guy has 3 hards days in a row (Sat-race, sun-long, and mon-workout) I know i'd be pretty beat up after that. You might want to move the workout to Tuesday.

Something I forgot to mention is that I was doing workouts fine, just like this guy. I would really look into the calorie intake of this guy exp before meets, alot of people get nervous and don't eat, or think they might cramp b/c of the food. Personally I'd rather deal with a cramp now then run like crap

Great info., Hadd.

More bloodwork. Make sure he gets his ferritin levels checked, not just hemoglobin.