Interesting thread, fellas. It's hard for me to imagine a local masters runner taking PEDs -- the stakes are just so low compared to the risks. However ... as has been mentioned, it is hard to account for the ego and vanity of individuals, especially as we begin to fade away. It IS hard to go quietly, which is why so many of us keep on training so hard to stave off the inevitable slow-down.
So don't race. Let the cheaters cheat. If you yourself are clean you'll know it.
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Dr. Smith wrote:
Interesting thread, fellas. It's hard for me to imagine a local masters runner taking PEDs -- the stakes are just so low compared to the risks. However ... as has been mentioned, it is hard to account for the ego and vanity of individuals, especially as we begin to fade away. It IS hard to go quietly, which is why so many of us keep on training so hard to stave off the inevitable slow-down.
On a side tangent, did anyone catch Real Sports on HBO this weekend about the sharp, increasing # of sport-related overuse injuries in the Boomer generation? The main gist is that the Boomers have been the first generation of older Americans who, by and large, continue to exercise at high levels. The story argues that while it may stay off heart disease and diabetes, the rate of knee replacments and other major ortho procedures have sky-rocketed.
Yes, I cheat all the time. How else do you think I crank out those 9 minute miles? Geritol baby!
Unfortunately, it is my suspicion that there are many masters runners - age groupers in general...who are cheating. It is more so they can train without getting hurt, than to run really fast 'open' times, but it's cheating nonetheless.
I think you can look at anyone who has been running for many years, and then is suddenly approaching or beating their open times as a 40+, and not breaking down under the strain of intense training, and 'wonder.' It's sickening, but it's the reality of it. They don't test at the Master's level, and many people who compete at that level use it as their chance to finally get 'their 15 minutes.'
I don't know about California, but I can say it is prevelant in Colorado. Those of you who follow the sport closely can pick them out. Of course, there is no proof, so no accusations will hold up, and the accusers will be seen as bitter or jealous. But I can tell you, as a former elite, you know which Masters are cheating, and which are legit...anyone who understands running progression will tell you the same.
[quote]ropeadope wrote:
I think you can look at anyone who has been running for many years, and then is suddenly approaching or beating their open times as a 40+, and not breaking down under the strain of intense training, and 'wonder.' It's sickening, but it's the reality of it. [quote]
Translation: Anyone who does well at the masters level and does not get injured a lot and particularly anyone who beats me is cheating because I am unable to accept that anyone can do that if I cannot.
Although I consider myself "retired" from competition, I've been living and running in Colorado for twenty years now, almost half of that as a "master" (a term that I despise). I've never really had strong suspicions about any of the other Colorado "masters" that I raced against, and I'd hate to think that others regarded my performances as tainted. I'd like to hear more from you on the subject.
On a slightly different note, I would welcome more open discussion (not just on letsrun.com, but in the public forum generally) about the value of "anti-aging" uses of substances like testosterone and HgH. Although I've never used any such substances, I think that it's a legitimate area of inquiry, and I consider it unfortunate that concerns about cheating in competitive sports (a very small arena among older adults) seem to inhibit serious discussions about what could turn out to be tremendously life-enhancing practices for vast numbers of people.
actually, I beat most of them clean anyway...I just know running - obviously you don't.
I won't go into further detail, because of the very reason I don't post much on these sites - you get completely assassinated just for posting your feelings on a contraversial subject. (See above).
My thoughts are simply this: if you have been running competitively for many years, and you are now a Master, and suddenly begin shedding those old 'habits' of being injury prone, and you are now running significantly faster and able to train as hard or harder than when you were in your 20's and 30's - there's something not quite 'natural' about that. I know enough about running and racing to know that you lose speed, elasticity and strength as you become an 'aging' runner. And if you have a lot of miles on your body, you begin to break down, and slow down - NOT get stronger, faster, and less injury prone.
I am by no means saying all Masters are cheating. I am just saying there are some out there who are willing to do so, because they won't get caught, and because they want some glory in the Masters ranks. End of story.
I'm still sincerely curious about your remarks regarding Colorado "masters." I can understand why you might be reluctant about mentioning names, but what kinds of performances are you talking about? At the top end, the guys I know, and competed against, were all significantly faster when they were younger. A 2:22 marathon at the age of 42, for example, isn't terribly suspicious if the guy was running 2:15 ten years earlier.
By the way, my last post was written before I saw your response to my earlier post. I guess I still have the same question about what kinds of performances you're talking about, but if you don't want to answer, it's understandable.
Avocados Number wrote:
I'm still sincerely curious about your remarks regarding Colorado "masters." I can understand why you might be reluctant about mentioning names, but what kinds of performances are you talking about? At the top end, the guys I know, and competed against, were all significantly faster when they were younger. A 2:22 marathon at the age of 42, for example, isn't terribly suspicious if the guy was running 2:15 ten years earlier.
Actually I think a 2:22 marathon at age 42, even if you did a 2:15 ten years earlier is suspicious. The 10 years from 32 to 42 produces a decline in physical strength, not to mention wear and tear on body and joints. I would think that a 7 minute decline over 26 miles in 10 years time would be extremely minimal. But I am just guessing.
I feel sorry for masters cheats. I'm sure that some of them are doing it simply to stave off the pain and injuries due to Father Time.
ropeadope wrote:
actually, I beat most of them clean anyway...I just know running - obviously you don't.
no you don't and no you dont
ropeadope wrote:
I am by no means saying all Masters are cheating.
of course not. just the ones you cant beat.
envy is sad. envy by someone who is long past his prime and headed downward is just pathetic.
picadilly pete wrote:
I would think that a 7 minute decline over 26 miles in 10 years time would be extremely minimal. But I am just guessing..
incorrectly. for someone who actually works at it, a 7 minute decline from 32 to 42 in the marathon is large, not small.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
It is hard for me to imagine a masters athlete using performance enhancing drugs. The reason for competing at the masters level is so personal.
Ghost to Ghost I guess.
Granted that the majority of runners I converse with are masters runners but it seems to me that that group is always interested in supplements of some kind to help themselves whether it's stuff like Endurox or simply getting a B12 shot. My thoughts on this are that if there are enough "looking" than there are some "looking further". So I suspect that, even though most performance is still highly personal, there is enough of a subset of competitors willing to use something such as HGH to help them in their daily lives and to beat Joe, the guy they don't like from their running club if that's an added effect.
It's a shame we have to think that way but this also seems to be human nature.
ropeadope wrote:
Unfortunately, it is my suspicion that there are many masters runners - age groupers in general...who are cheating. It is more so they can train without getting hurt, than to run really fast 'open' times, but it's cheating nonetheless.
The only time I've ever thought about taking anything other than an aspirin was to get rid of the much sorer body I had in attempting the same workout program in my early forties that I used 10 years earlier. Pain can be a very powerful motivator.
niarb wrote:
of course not. just the ones you cant beat.
envy is sad. envy by someone who is long past his prime and headed downward is just pathetic.
You sir, are a mindless twit!
geez - who pee'd in your Wheaties?...I'm guessing your 15 minutes are up...or perhaps never were?