Any advice on breaking through in a 8k?

Your PRs in the 1500 and 800 indicate to me that some people are just geared for different distances. For example, my PR in the 8K cross country is 25:15, and I ran a 27:23 in one meet just prior to finding out I had mono and the doctor said my spleen just about burst, and while I didn't run an 800 after high school, it is doubtful that I could have run a 1:57 (2:03 is my PR), and also while I never ran a 1500 in college, my best mile ever doesn't indicate I could have run 4:04.

Anyway, if you got up to 70 miles per week, it seems that you are doing the right thing mileagewise, and that is about what I ran in college. It could be that your body responds more to some speed work or hills and that perhaps some of that would help. I actually don't have the answer here, because I don't and never did have the problem you do. You seem to have the speed and not the strength or endurance, while I lacked excellent speed but had much better strength and endurance.

Bottom line is that perhaps you are destined to excel in the 3000 and shorter.

I'm sure some will have the recipe for you to get better and call me a quack, but actually I am pleading ignorance here - just pointing out how different our times on each end of the distance running spectrum were with pretty much the same kind of training.

damn, frustrated, your case seems unusual....

Seeing how you did all those extra miles in the summer, like up to 70 like you said, your endurance strong enough their to your 8k time down regardless of speed workouts...

I mean, what pace do you run at for the majority of you runs? Perhaps this is a problem... Make sure they are at an honest pace, like 6:45 preferably 6:30 pace...

Myself, off summer milage last year I ran an 8k in 27:54, and have since improved it to 26:47.... And it's wierd that your track times are so fast but you can't break 28, I've run considerably slower than you on the track- 2:06 indoors and 4:19 out

my advice is just keep up the milage and make sure most of it is at an honest pace... your 8k time will come down

You may still be adjusting to your increased mileage and, now that schools started, to increased intensity. Give yourself another couple weeks to adjust.

Also, I think there's a common theme this season of runners running slower than they did last year at this time - my guess it that a lot of it is real and is simply because it's been hotter so far this season than last year in much of the country.

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it. Though I'm not likely to ever run a 25:40 or whatever for 8k, I do think that I should be able to obtain a 27:30 or faster. My mileage is at 6:30-6:50 pace, depending on the distance. Perhaps just adjusting to the intensity and lack of real speed work is where the problem lies. I'll be sure to let you all know how the next few weeks go. Thank you again.

Frustrated dont put limits on yourself.Stay positive,get rid of that self doubt,maintain a good positive attitude,and good things will happen for you.Good luck this season.

you still have plenty of time this fall. you've been working pretty hard at establishing a solid foundation of endurance. once you start tapering, you'll feel a lot lighter on the feet. going out anywhere in the 5:20-5:30 range sounds very reasonable. you'll do it man. and once you get under 28, you'll be gunning for sub-27, then sub-26, etc.

keep the confidence alive...you'll be under 28 very soon!

Be patient.

Keep working hard.

You have the "speed" obviously. Your 800 PR is faster than mine, yet I have run 2;23 for the marathon.

I suggest that you just run more base miles and faster intervals. Try hitting your mile repeats in about 5;00 or less. It is okay to take longer rest, such as 5;00 rests between the miles.

I am starting to come to a conclusion that the rest time between intervals is not really important.....if you run faster and take longer rests, the body will become more efficient at the faster pace.

Keep the faith.

jason

There is really no big mystery here, Frustrated, it?s quite simple.

The only reason you (or anyone else) die(s) in the last mile of an 8k (as you did), is because the lactate in your muscles has risen too high, causing them to shut down. This shows that your aerobic system was not dealing with your running pace at that time and you had been activating your anaerobic system to some serious extent.

You will understand that each race requires a percentage mix of aerobic and anaerobic energy. At 800m this is around 50/50. At 1500m this rises to 65% aerobic and only 35% anaerobic. As you will note, as the race gets longer, your aerobic system becomes more important. There is no way round this, it?s just a fact.

So, as you run 8k (is this cross country?), your aerobic system will have become EVEN MORE important. Something around 85-90% of all the energy for the race must come from the aerobic system with only 10-15% from the anaerobic. If you try to run with a higher anaerobic percentage than this, you must expect a large rise in lactate (well before the end of the race) and you will die long before the line.

So, that is what happened to you on race day when you finished with a 6.10 last mile.

Now, the bigger question is why did your aerobic system not provide the large percentage of energy you required?

Could be a number of things, but here are the most likely.

1. You came into the race a bit flat. Too much anaerobic work in recent weeks and didn?t ease off enough in the days before the race (cut down intensity and cut down mileage).

This looks like it could be the reason, but I don?t believe it is, because this was not a one-off under-par performance. Your 28.10 PR is just not where it should be. So this was not a bad race, but another example of your inability to race well at longer distances.

Which brings us to?

2. You have not optimally trained your aerobic system at all. It is never ready for racing well at 8k, irrespective of how well you taper and rest beforehand.

It is easy to see that your easy running at 6.30-6.45m/m is way too fast for you. (Now don?t all write in and say that that is what Joe and Mike and Fred all run. We are talking about Frustrated here, and I am saying that such paces are too fast FOR HIM.)

Don?t get me wrong. Frustrated is managing to complete these runs, but he is not benefiting from them, and that?s the whole point of doing them.

Here?s how he can check if I am right. Beg, borrow, steal or even buy a HRM monitor for one hour. Run at 150-155 HR on a measured route (track is best for accuracy) and note your mile pace. I bet it?s not sub-7.00m/m. If you want, run at 6.30m/m for 20 mins and note your HR. I'm guessing 175-180+. High, huh? (I'm assuming a normal high max teenager's HR of 195+)

When you were running these 6.30 pace runs, you were overworking your heart, activating your anaerobic system (too high lacate even on your easy runs) and basically doing zilch for your aerobic system.

You need to slow down and do ALL your easy running at this HR. Don?t worry if grannies with prams overtake you on these runs at first, the pace will improve with time, but the effort on your heart will remain low and when you begin to get faster, it will be your aerobic system that is providing all the energy and not as at present.

One other time per week you can run a steady run of 2 x 30 mins at 165-170 HR (after warm-up). NOT FASTER.

Change nothing else (just don?t speed up those 5.20 miles). Instead consider slowing them up to a pace you can run for 2 miles with just 400m jog recovery (like 3-4 x 2miles with 400m jog). These will do much more for your 8k time than faster miles with longer recovery.

That?s it. Slow up your easy runs by using an HRM to keep you slow and make sure "easy" is really "easy".

Run a little bit faster once per week (2 x 30 mins @ 165-170 HR right up until track season). And move up to 2-mile repeats instead of one miles for as long as you are racing 8k.

I would think that if you do this right, a sub 27.00 / 8k time should be possible in time (and I'm being very conservative).

PS: find a knowledgeable distance coach near home.

Great advice here!

Additionally, don't talk yourself out of a good time. By telling yourself that you can't reach a certain goal, you won't reach it and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Great Advice. I ran 28:00 as a master. My daily runs were much slower than yours; but my last mile was always my second fastest mile. When you consider that I was a sprinter/jumper in college, my endurance was pretty good. Also trained my son to 25:55 (cross country) on 50-55 miles a week. He also didn't train at 6:30 pace, but worked on his times for 7 and 10 miles over the summer and ran 5x1 mile weekly with a full recovery. The idea is never to get so tired that you have to go off the weekly plan. Good luck, your track times predict much faster times than you are running.

Wow, this is a lot more feedback than I had anticipated. Thanks! This weekend my team is going to run a 6k dual meet. I've never raced that distance before, but my plan is to try and run 5:22 pace. I figure it to be good practice for trying to reach my 8k goal.

If you are able to keep up with the faster runners during workouts thoughout the week, but can't hang with them during a race then you probably shouldn't be running with them during the week. This happens often to the team that I run for, people who are farther back in the pack try to run with the top guys on easy-moderate days and end up turning a recovry day into a hard day, leaving them empty for race day.

Hey, my situation is quite similar to yours. When I started running this summer after I ran a 4:34 1600, I got all excited when conversion tables said I should be able to do a 33 something 10k.

Unfortunately, my 8k PR, set this morning, is only 28:24. Since this was my first cc race ever I've gotta say I did go out a good bit too fast, but I just don't seem to be able to maintain the pace I'd like. Even on a track I'm not sure I could do 8k in under 27:30. This is a bit discouraging, as in my pre-running days I always felt I had a lot of natural endurance...so I just don't know if I'm doing something wrong or what. I've gone from not running at all to 40-50 miles a week this summer (yes that's not much compared to most of you), and I ran a 5 mile road race back in July when I'd run less than 60 miles the whole year in a time of 28:38. This was my first test since then, and is there something wrong with what I'm doing that only improved me 14 seconds from being a beginning runner to someone who does 40+ mpw?

Does anyone think I should just stick to shorter distances, or is it possible to significantly raise your level of endurance?

you guys just need to put in more miles, plain and simple... I run slower than you on the track, 4:38 mile (1500m conversion)

but my 8k road time is 26:47.... so if your beating me in the mile then you should at least be sub 26:47 for the 8km if not then you lack in endurance

I realize I lack in endurance. However, being a faster miler doesn't mean I should be a faster 5 miler. I mean that's like saying El-Gerrouj should beat Geb in a 10k (or 5k)--but how come I'm NOT improving much with all the mileage I've put in the last couple months. I mean I've essentially gone from not running at all to over 40 a week--shouldn't this cause a noticeable drop in my times?

And Frustrated has been running 70 mile weeks, which should be plenty to get his endurance up.

What I'm saying is that because my "natural" (untrained) mile time is more impressive than my corresponding "untrained" 5 mile time (4:34 vs 28:38), does that mean I'm destined to be a better MD than distance runner? Seems to me like what you're best at before you pick up running should be the same after you've been running for years, cause all facets of your running will improve togetherr.

kartelite wrote:

What I'm saying is that because my "natural" (untrained) mile time is more impressive than my corresponding "untrained" 5 mile time (4:34 vs 28:38), does that mean I'm destined to be a better MD than distance runner? Seems to me like what you're best at before you pick up running should be the same after you've been running for years, cause all facets of your running will improve togetherr.

Your rationale is pretty logical. However, the longer the race is the more one's focus comes into play. So somebody who started out as being a better middle distance guy could actually end up being a better long distance or ultra guy if his focus/will is developed until it is vastly superior to his competitors. A good test to see how developed your focus is would be to stare/gaze at a small point, possibly a square inch or smaller, without once letting your eyes wander from that point/area. If you can not hold your focus on it for an equal duration to the amount of time you will be racing/doing a workout than you would be well served to work on this. Chances are that you won't be able to keep your eyes from wandering for more than a minute or two if you havn't worked on this before. Consider that this short amount of time you are able to keep focus is while you are in no pain whatsoever. You'll see that people experiencing pain, be it from racing or some other source, will be constantly turning their attention from it.

A lot of excellent advice on the physiological aspect of improving your race performance. You should also analyze the psychological process of your racing for areas of improvement. I found that when I was highly focused on hitting certain times in XC or road races based on my training performance, that I almost invariably had mediocre races. You may be expending surprising amounts of energy in your race worrying about hitting your time goal. For a change try rehearsing in workouts and racing with as much focus as you can get on good form and relaxation at your race pace. Ignore splits and focus on form and relaxation. Sometimes a change in mental approach is as important as a change in physical approach to get you out of a racing rut. Keep after it!