Bandits in roadracing

Patio,

If the $20-$30 fee doesn't cover expenses, then why does someone put on the race? And how do all of these races that benefit some cause or other manage to benefit the causes if the races lose money?

Someone else commented about a public road no longer being public if it's been closed for a race, but most of the races I've run have been on roads that are still open, they just have a lane closed or cops directing traffic, so I think it would be hard to keep an unregistered runner off them.

I see this as a bit like wearing seatbelts when you drive; it's something you're supposed to do. In many if not most states it's required. Yet many people don't and most of us don't see it as a real big deal. Do all you guys who want to prosecute race bandits observe the posted speed limit every time you drive? Ever cut a class in high school or download some unauthorized music from the net? No one here ever does anything that skirts the law or a rule? Yes, we should all pay our entry fees, no matter how high or how little we get in return and if that bothers us we should just skip the event. But life would be awfully dull if all we ever did was what we're supposed to do. If a race has, say 1,203 runners but only 1164 of them actually paid the entry fee, I can't get worked up about those 39 bandits, especially since I'm convinced there were at least that many runners who registered but haven't shown up or run. When race directors give refunds, I'll start getting upset about bandits.

A few years back for two years in a row I was a bandit in a Terry Fox road race to benefit cancer, and I collected metals both years. I felt pretty bad about it.

patio wrote:

No one in this area puts on a race where they have no race premium, police protection, accurate course certification, post race refreshments, insurance, winners trophies, finishline management, porta pottys, medical, water stations, sound system, etc. Why? Because most people expect these things and all these things cost money. Races are not fun runs that you can pull off on the sly any more.

Go ahead and put on a race for $5 and let us know who shows up.

I'll be running in a race this weekend with no entry fee. There will be medals for the top three male and female finisher in each of the following categories: middle school, high school, college, and adult. There will be t-shirts for all who pre-register. This race attracts some of the best high school competition from around the state, as well as some good college and ex-college runners. The race is paid for by corporate sponsorships, and directed by a 20-year old college kid. It can be done.

And your local coach will find himself (or herself) in bankruptcy when the first person falls down on that course and sues them. They don't have to win the suit, they just have to sue. Your coach will have to hire a lawyer, and that'll be the end of that. THey'll be loucky to still own a jockstrap by the time it's all over.

If your local RD actually had a "bandit" chute they partially condoned participation and doing that opened them up to tremendous liability.

Any race in a public venue needs insurance whether they realize it or not. That's why bandits should be eviserated and hung up as a warning to other bandits. That insurance costs races $500-$1000 on the average, more if you allow things like baby joggers to participate.

You jokers talking about your "no frills" races have no idea what you're talking about. Our club does a track series each year for nothing. No the uninformed would say "see! you CAN do a no frills, low cost race". Yup, we can not charge, but it doesn't mean it didn't cost us money. Our club pays $2500 a year for insurance to cover our events. We don't have to rent timing equipment because we own it, but we still had to spend money to buy it, store it, etc.

The only reason we can do a "no frills, low cost" race is because we subsidize the cost by charging money at other races.

Over the past four years, I have decided to put on free races out of my own pocket....mostly track and CC because I am an Assistant coach and have access to all the facilities....I hire a timer get quite a few t-shirts and scrounge for some awards and refreshments.....I will never put on a 20 dollar race again (i did for 8 years) it was embarrasing asking that much....don't get very many runners now, because they all think you have to have some ididot Jim Morrison wannabee singing in your face at each mile marker to be a real quality race....

but the runners i get are "Lonely Breed" all the way.

I don't see your logic here...every one of the few road races I've participated in has had something to sign saying "I release the race from all responsibility, etc." How could anyone, having signed that, sue and have even a shred of credibility in court?

Well said.I've been a runner for over 28 years and used to do well in local competitions in the 70's and 80's. I've never race directed or volunteered. I rarely race anymore but I' like to thank anybody who has ever directed or volunteered a race.

I did bandit once at the NYC Marathon .I was a teenager and the cost and the lottery made it somewhat prohibitive. In retrospect it was a hollow experience. I told many friends and relatives who than went snow blind trying to find my name in the finishers column of the local newspapers. I now wish I had officially entered.I've never run a marathon again and nor do I desire.

So thanks to all directors and volunteers.

And if your good enough to win a certain category don't use pseudonyms like some other threaders who use "Mike Hunt".

I don't know about the rest of you but the few fortunate times

I actually won I was proud to hear the name I was born with.

How does this open the RD up to "tremendous liability"? If a runner falls down on a course as a result of negligence on behalf of the RD or his or her agents I can see a suit coming from this. I guess a hose could be left on the course, wet paper cups cause a fall, large patch of ice at the finish. All of these conditions would have to be the result of serious carelessness and oversight. Essentially the RD would have to know about this condition and ignore it. Then there might (I stress might) be a successful case. I think in this case the bandit non bandit distinction is irrelevant.

A person runs in a race and gets knocked down at the starting line. Breaks an arm. Now they can sue.

It's naive to think this (or dozens of other scenarios) can't happen.

For 20 years, a local high school coach has run an "alumni" race for the entire league I competed in during high school. The last Thursday of every July, both current high school runners and alumni flocked to a local park for the race. The race was free. The workers were volunteers. The awards were ribbons. Last week, the coach left a message on my answering machine. Due to the cost of liability insurance, the race had to be canceled this year.

This is a reality of our times.

Sad but true.

I like to Bandit races it makes me feel like Billy the Kid.

I think its depressing that several people think $5 or even $10 is a no frills cheap race ugh oh well. Every club in our area puts on a majority of races that are $0-$2 or so for members of a given club and maybe $2-$5 for non members. Obviously you need to have insurance these days which clearly sucks but the clubs all have it and it is generally covered by the club dues. I definitely think that there is price gouging as well though- as others have said 25x500= 12500 dollars which is a lot of money with only a 500 person race. I know the one person in our area has his own business which is just putting on races(this is a part time job as he is retired i think?) So obv many races could charge less although the people should some money for the work they do. This has obviously increased over the years though. As for banditing its fairly stupid cuz just about anywhere it seems to me you could find a race that was 10 dollars or under- prob more like 5 dollars or under. The only prob is that a lot of those races prob dont have too good competition but if ur trying to race effectively urent gonna run every single weekend anyway. If u cant afford to do one or two big races then either ur super poor and have to do just small races(which would suck) or else u just arent that into running. Besides if ur so good that u cant get comp at small races and are poor just train and try to get some race director to let u in free if ur that good they will.

The local running club around me puts on 5 dollar races. One i remember in particular was a 5 mile race, run on some nice trails in a park. included trophies and a nice shirt (one of my favorites actually). 5 dollars was non member, race day entry fee, actually cheaper if you're in their club (pay dues) and pre-register.

It can be done. But you won't be running through the streets, and won't have tons of food and expensive afterwards. This race did have some fruit though. These are great races and a lot of fun. Turn out is usually pretty low (< 300), but still a good time.

Its too bad there are not more races like you described. Running on the whole has defintely taken a turn for the worse in this respect. It seems like all of the good smaller races have faded away and the larger races have just grown bigger, more expensive to compete and worse yet a bigger pain in the ass to run in.

D_Gordon wrote:

I don't see your logic here...every one of the few road races I've participated in has had something to sign saying "I release the race from all responsibility, etc." How could anyone, having signed that, sue and have even a shred of credibility in court?

You miss the point. Signing the waiver is only done by registered runners. Bandits don't sign it but the RD by allowing their participation (by setting up their chute) assumes liability.

In any case, the waiver doesn't stop people from sueing, since if they claim legligence the waiver doesn't apply. Also, even though the waiver can't reduce the chance of winning, you still have to hire a lawyer and without insurance you still have to pay them. SO even if you win you're still out a pile of money since "loser pays" isn't the law of the land.

hornfin wrote:

How does this open the RD up to "tremendous liability"? If a runner falls down on a course as a result of negligence on behalf of the RD or his or her agents I can see a suit coming from this. I guess a hose could be left on the course, wet paper cups cause a fall, large patch of ice at the finish. All of these conditions would have to be the result of serious carelessness and oversight. Essentially the RD would have to know about this condition and ignore it. Then there might (I stress might) be a successful case. I think in this case the bandit non bandit distinction is irrelevant.

By allowing bandits open participation (having a bandit chute) you are saying you are making no attempt to discourage their participation. You've assumed liability. It's the same problem if you don't pay for wheeled insurance, but openly allow baby joggers. You've assumed liability. It's pretty open and shut in these situations and the RD's nearly always lose.

You are also assuming that the lawsuit has to be successful for it to cost the RD money. Bad assumption. Unless you're a fool you'll hire a lawyer. While the lawyer bringing the suit is most likely working on contingency, you have to pay yours and you may get NO renumeration for the fees even if you win.

A man that ran with his brother's bib is sueing the San Diego Marathon and it's in appelate court. It didn't get thrown out. There are in process suits about lack of water, baby jogger hitting another competitor (other competitor's sueing), and a couple of various organization issues. Sure only 5-6 a year out of hundreds of races, but it all comes down to if you want to roll the dice.

Every other year I have someone drop in one of the races I work. Normally a weekend warrior gets dehydrated and goes hypoglycemic, forgets their own name and drops like a rock. I have a rescue squad standing by at a cost of $150-250. Rehydrate them and get some sugar in their bloodstream they're good as new, don't know how to deal with it and you're in a heap o' trouble. How many of these "no frills" guys want to actually make use of that emergency contact number in the registration form?

Race Bandit wrote:

Who wants to pay 20$ to run in a 5K roadrace anyways? All I am looking for is just some competition to run aginst; yet race officials always get on my case. I always start out of everyone's way and drop off to the side at the end to prevent any interruption of the timing system. Anyone else deal with this? Why should race officials care?

As long as we can have you stuffed and placed by the start line as a warning to other bandits, we don't care at all.

D_Gordon wrote:

I don't see your logic here...every one of the few road races I've participated in has had something to sign saying "I release the race from all responsibility, etc." How could anyone, having signed that, sue and have even a shred of credibility in court?

One cannot sign away negligence. Those waivers are virtually worthless. Ask any attorney.

Exactly. I wonder why people even offer those waivers. They have little to no legal significance as far as informed consent or assumption of the risk is concerned is concerned. How the hell are you supposed to know what you are really capable of doing physically. Yeah you have a general idea...but who really knows. As far assuming the risk do I assume the risk for some freak accident or the fact that other runners are careless. Most of these forms just have the runner sign off that he assumes the risk of any bad consequences that might arise from the race. Geez our whole body of civil law in the country would be rendered pointless if these waivers were used across the board and valid. Nobody would ever have a valid claim. They could just say sorry you signed your rights away here. I am guessing the insurance companies are lurking behind this stupid requirement.

The waivers aren't worthless - they do help establish, or, if you will, minimize the duty of care, the breach of which is a necessary element to liability (assuming proximate cause and other requirements as against the tortfeasor/race organizer are met).

In the the rather conservative jurisdiction in which I live (Va), they do add considerable value, and the courts have upheld the waivers unless the plaintiff can point to a very specific act (or even harder, omission) of negligence on the part of the race organizer. One of the leading cases here holding the defendant liable had a triathlon starter on tape demonstrating before a novice race a "head" first approach to diving in a lake. The plaintiff unfortunately suffered paralysis as a result of such a dive. The plaintiff's lawyer, a friend of mine (and a fine triathlete himself) thought the case would have been exceedingly difficult but for the taped evidence.

I don't understand your point about the whole body of civil law being deemed pointless if waivers were uniformly upheld. The issue here relates to a voluntary recreational activity, with some risk involved. We aren't dealing with a city, for example, demanding a waiver before one can drive on their streets. Even if the waivers aren't uniformly enforceable (and they aren't - negligence can't entirely be waived and certainly not liabilities from intentional or tortiously wilful acts of misconduct), they do help mitigate the balance between risk and return for race organizers in a way that furthers more, not less races, with a cheaper cost, to boot.

In any event, puts an interesting spin on race banditry. Would bandits be willing to provide an indemnity (let's say one that is imposed by statute) to the race organizer against and all claims, with the added gloss that all obligations and liabilities under the indemnity are not dischargeable from bankruptcy, so that the liability would follow on around ad infinitum? If, as they claim, there is no "value" to what they are converting, then they ought to a priori accede to such an indemnity, right?