Bandits in roadracing

Pull Your head outta your butt wrote:

I fired a babysitter when she told me that she ran a race without paying an entry fee. I knew that I didn't want that lack of ethics to be around my child.

Ha Ha... You'll laugh someday if you remember saying this when/if you really do have kids... funny stuff (whether or not it was intentional).

no way wrote:

Not cool maybe, but theft of services and illegal it is not. Since moving to Virginia the land of the 30 dollar 5k I've run some races as a bandit. If you don't drink any of the water on the course and don't mess up the finish line process by simply not crossing the finish and aren't a jerk on the course then who really cares. I've also run several races as a bandit, including Marine Corps Marathon and Cherry Blossom, to pace friends in their efforts to run PR's, in those cases I'll drink at aid stations.

1) So you did steal from the race in the cases where you drank.

2) In those large races, your friend did not have other people he/she could run with? I find that hard to believe.

3) I am not sure of the legalities (would there be a state law that covers this?) but the ethics are that the RD paid for the course to be closed for participants in the event. You are not a participant. Ergo, you are stealing.

....but if she is cute and lacks ethics...isn't that the kind of babysitter you want?

JEH wrote:

Pull Your head outta your butt wrote:

I fired a babysitter when she told me that she ran a race without paying an entry fee. I knew that I didn't want that lack of ethics to be around my child.

Ha Ha... You'll laugh someday if you remember saying this when/if you really do have kids... funny stuff (whether or not it was intentional).

HRE, I'm really disappointed to read your posts on this topic. I've enjoyed your posts almost universally for a few years since I found this board. Lost a little respect with this one, not that that should matter to you...

All the posts I've seen so far are missing the biggest point. The biggest problem with bandits is the potential for liability against a race should there be an incident causing injury to someone running in a race as a bandit. Sure, it is theft of services, same as skipping out on a check in a restaurant or ditching your cabbie. Sure, it creates the potential for registered runners to be denied water on the course and at the finish. Those are problems, but the bigger problem is what happens if you bandit and get hit by a car that happens to get on the course, or what if you have a medical emergency. Bandits don't sign the waiver. Their info is not in the race entrants database. Do some research on the Alcatraz Triathlon where a bandit biker got hit by a car last year. In that case it was someone who used a friend's number. He had not signed the waiver so sued the race organization for his medical bills. I won't get into all the specifics here, just something to think about.

I've got sympathy for those of you who don't want to pay $25 for a 5k. But take some personal responsibility, if you want to do a race you pay the fee and jump through the hoops to get in the race. Otherwise go for a run somewhere else or at a different time. Or volunteer. God forbid you gave something back to your sport. I don't mean that to sound harsh, but I'm amazed at how many people race 8, 12, 15 races a year and never help out at one.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm on the race staff for a good sized New England marathon. I make a few $ for my troubles, but I have put in probably 3000 hours in the past decade working this race. If you've got a problem with me making lunch money for the service I provide then you need to step into my shoes and deal with what I deal with. It's a fun job, but it's a hell of a challenge. We have busted bandits, in particular people who sell/trade a race number. When caught we've pushed for, and gotten, lifetime USATF bans. I hate that we don't allow transfers, but it's not my decision to make.

Personal responsibility folks. You know banditing is wrong. Take the high road.

Lunkhead - you should change your name to "ignorant young lunkhead." I'm a masters runner. I train/race/correspond with a dozen other masters runners. And none of us supports this expensive "road-racing racket" that you speak of. Most of us raced back in the days when races attracted 20-300 entrants and cost $2-$3 to enter. And most of us have families and financial obligations that make high entry fees especially hard to stomach. Most of the races I ran in the '70s didn't offer T-shirts--who needed them? Most of the races were on paths or in parks--better surface. There were rarely police involved in traffic/course control back then--better atmosphere. So don't blame us. We've been in this for the long haul. Before there was such a thing as Nike. Before mayors and city councilmen and weathermen and other minor celebrities manned the starting gun. Back when road races were measured in miles and not kilometers. Back when you won a pair of shoes by winning the race and not by holding the lucky raffle ticket. Back when no one wore socks with their racing shoes. Strange days. But less expensive ones. Yes, let's find a way to put together affordable races, but let's not point the finger at the old guys who passed the sport down to you and your ilk--the future old guys.

Wow. Have I really been writing here for a few years?

There are a few things in life that really annoy me. One is that when you buy a car that you find you don't like after a few days or weeks of driving you can't just take it back to the place you bought it and get a refund like you can with an air conditioner or pair of shoes.

Another is races where you enter a week in advance, pay a larger entry fee because you missed the first deadline, don't get the shirt or any of the other stuff that the race gives to the earlier entrants because you missed the first deadline and are told the shirts, etc. are "all gone," then find that the all gone shirts or whatevers are being sold at a table. So while I generally would never run a race I didn't enter, I might enjoy knowing that such a race had a few bandits.

Another thing that annoys me is that so many races that aren't marathons have become 5ks because the short time the race takes generates maximum profits for the organization putting on the race.

And I have a hard time not believing that there's a fair amount of gouging being done to runners. If someone puts on a race to benefit the Society for Dyslexic, Albino, Orphans and charges $20 to enter and then turns thousands of dollars over to the Society, it stands to reason that they could have put on a race just for runners, not turned thousands of dollars in profits, and lowered the fee.

It's no big deal to me now. I can afford whatever entry fees come along and I don't race all that frequently. But a young runner in a situation similar to what my own was around 1980 would have a hard time racing very frequently. Maybe bandits are just cheap SOBs, but they are about the only people in the sport who are really protesting the high cost of entering races and while I don't exactly condone what they're doing, I sort of admire it.

Now, the solution here would be for races to charge a "no frills" entry fee, say $5, for which you get a number and an officially recorded time, a "shirt package" where for a bit more you get a shirt as well, and a "deluxe package" where you pay your arm and leg and get the shirt, the goody bag, the chance to win whatever comes in the post-race drawing, the feed, etc. I know that race directors who've tried this often say they abandoned it because almost no one went for the no-frills package. So what? Keep it as an option for the 5 or 6 people who might use it. I think they're using the fact that few choose the cheap option as a rationale for gouging everyone.

As to the liability thing, I'm sure some insurance company will figure a way to write a policy that will cover damage to uninsured participants for an extra fee. Most of us pay for uninsured motorist coverage with our car insurance.

I've enjoyed your posts as well and generally agree that it's better to enter races than not if you're going to be running them. But I get a little tired of people who are so judgemental about what other people do that they fire babysitters who reckon there's no harm in going for a run on a public roadway at the same time there's a race going on.

I am not sure it qualifies as theft (larceny) in any jurisdiction. A race is not a service or good that can be quantified like a meal in a dine and ditch situation or skipping the gate on a movie or a train ride. Lets face it a road race is an organized bunch runners with a clock and water stops. As far as the taking element necessary for theft bandits are taking nothing. A bandit is simply becoming part of the organized group who use public streets or trails they take nothing as far as material goods such as shirts or food (sometimes). The only items I can see a bandit taking from the race are water and possibly a miniscule amount of time used to hand the bandit a cup of water or call out his split. You are criminalizing individuals engaging everyday activity, i.e running on a public street. The only way I can see any criminal activity out of this is if the race was roped off on private property or public property that has been made temporarily off limits. Here we might be entering some trespass issues, but not theft. As far as the liability for injuries are concerned the bandit assumes the risk by running a race without entering. Unknown trepassers are essentially on their own when it comes to tort liability against landowners or even race directors.

Much like the record industry who made music overpriced driving people to go to kazaa or the old napster system race directors do the same thing by jacking up entry fees. They make banditing seem alot more attractive than paying up the fee. I don't think I have paid less than $20 for a race in a long time and most of these are small races with shitty shirts, mismarked courses, little or no food afterwards or I hear my favorite line "we are out of shirts but we will mail one" or "we are out of shirts and you still pay the full price". Lets just say I have never had a shirt mailed to me in over 13 years of racing. Screw these directors who think they can cash in on people who enjoy the sport. More free races. More outlaw runners.

you are so weird pull your head....you believe that because someone dosent want to pay an entry fee but still wants some comp. they are immoral? man seriously, thats wak...

Wintermix wrote:

you are so weird pull your head....you believe that because someone dosent want to pay an entry fee but still wants some comp. they are immoral? man seriously, thats wak...

.....and now back to your dumpster.

Hornfin - Can't say I agree with your conclusions. First, bandits are not taking "nothing". If there was "nothing" to take they wouldn't be in the race in the first instance. Although people may disagree as to the quantum of value a race reflects, a bandit's participation self-authenticates the proposition that the race in and of itself has value. Is it just conincidence that a bandit would run the same course, at the same time as other competitors (see the statements re needing competition if you have further doubts over a race's value)? You can't confuse the quantum of liability (i.e., value of the deprived services) with the matter of liability itself. The former goes to the degree of culpability, the latter is the threshold event for determining the existence of culpability - which I clearly think exists here. And I don't understand your point as to whether the actionable conduct takes place on private or public property. Again, the point is criminal liability for theft of services, not civil or associated liability for trespass. Is it acceptable to steal a car on public property but not so on private property? Hardly. Bottom line is that if one of one of my law students gave a response such as yours, I would have had to assign a grade associated with a not-so-thoughtful answer.

HRE,

I read with amusement the idea of complicating races with a 3 tier pay system. Sure! I'm involved with many races and every year they cost more & more money to put on. I'm involved in no races where the priciples make any money. That $20 - $30 entry fee won't even cover expenses.

No one in this area puts on a race where they have no race premium, police protection, accurate course certification, post race refreshments, insurance, winners trophies, finishline management, porta pottys, medical, water stations, sound system, etc. Why? Because most people expect these things and all these things cost money. Races are not fun runs that you can pull off on the sly any more.

Go ahead and put on a race for $5 and let us know who shows up.

Bandits; If the race is too expensive for you, don't go. Those that put on the race owe you nothing and don't deserve you complicating things.

Quantum,

What about the idea that there must be a concurrence of both actus reus and mens rea for a crime to have been committed. Where is the "bad mind" of the bandit? Can someone who participates in the race as a runner yet intentionally avoids the true benefits of the race such as awards, timing, results, shirts, food, etc really be seen as having a bad mind? Taking this one step beyond, where is the actus reus in banditing? What has been taken from the race or race director? You seem to not want to take on this point directly. Does the director or club have a proprietory interest in the movemet of runners along a street, or an interest in the use of the street at a particular time that can be deprived by the bandit. DO they pay for the privilege to use the street whereby the bandit is wrongfully benefitng from their expenditure. Either way please explain to me where is the deprivation of property or even services in this case. As far as the trespass issue I brought up I was just pointing out the fact that this is not just an issue regarding theft it could be a trespass issue also. By the way, professor, are you grading all repsonses on a curve?

...meanwhile back at the dumpster. "hey you gonna finish that banana?"

Banditing a race is a lot like stealing cable: lots of people do it, they're almost never caught or prosecuted, it's a service being stolen which has already been set up for others who paid for it, so the thieves justify it by saying that it doesn't cost anybody anything.

The truth is, it does cost people money in both cases. Cable companies have to pay rights fees just to get the programming, race directors have to pay city permits just to get the roads cleared.

Justify it if you want, blame the cable company and the races for charging exorbiant prices, but what you are doing is stealing, plain and simple.

Poor Master

My post did come off sounding like I wanted to slam masters runners in general which is definitiely not the case. I really have MUCH respect for serious veteran runners who've been with the sport since before it was so commercialized. I want it to get back to a more substantive form like you guys/gals had "back in the day." I'm jealous and I AM trying to do something about it.

I'm complaining more about born-again "runners" who start "running" when they happen to be in the masters age category (although the 30 somethings are giving them a run for their money), happen to be corporate-wealthy types (not that that's wrong, they just don't get why I balk at high race fees), and just happen to try to control the running scene like they controlled their kids PTA associations and homeowners' associations - they equate being heavily financed, involved, and owning a lot of gear and t-shirts with success - not performance or struggle.

I'm through bitching, I'm opting out of that scene and trying to create an alternative. Am I so ignorant?

Peace,

I like the rationalization of bandits...

The argument that you are just running down a public street is a little hard to take when the RD has gotten a permit to close that street down for a period of time for a race. To some extent, that is no longer a public road. If it were, I should be able to drive down that street.

From another standpoint, if I am running a race and I see you up ahead I have to make the decision on whether to try to catch you or not. If I make an effort to catch you, it could fatigue me to the point that I am caught by another runner. If you are a bandit, then you have hurt my chances of placing. If you had not been there, I would not have had to chase you and expended that energy that I could have used to hold off the person coming behind me.

More extreme: I am chasing a bandit at the finish and sprint to catch him to get a better placing. I pull a muscle only to see you pull off and find you are not a competitor.

Another extreme example that will happen one of these days: A bandit runner gets into a race, injures himself or dies, the runner sues or the estate of the runner sues the RD. Even if it is shown the person was not a participant of the race, a jury will award damages. Even if that does not happen, the RD's insurance company will have to pay the legal fees (through the insurance policy) which means the risk goes up and that means fees go up.

If criminals who break into a place of business and get injured can win damages against a business for having a wet floor (after the store is closed), a bandit can certainly sue a RD. And I do not want to hear any bullshit about how "I would never do that". Someone will one day--assuming no one has already.

It is wrong to use a service for which you did not pay if there is a fee normally charged (assuming the owner/provider of the service does not agree).

I guess if you think of our sport in the sense that it does not cost alot to participate in comparison to other sports. Think about cycling, thousand dollar bikes. Then of course you need a helmet, flat tire kit, bike pump, rack for the back of your car in case you want to transfer the bike, and the list goes on. Football has a ton of equipment and so does lacrosse and hockey. Plus you have to pay for your ice time, field time, or pool time if you are a swimmer. In running, all you need is a pair of shoes and a watch. And then another pair of shoes for races. That is nothing compared to other sports.

Hi: Im a race director... our club has low cost races for $5.00 per member/$10.00 per non- member. It can be done. However, you are getting a no frills event, and the staff has to bust their humps to get a lot of stuff donated. Here's my suggestion for all the whiners who want low cost races... put one on. You can do it. It's a lot of work, but all race director jobs are. There is no thanks, ever. You will never make any money anyway, and you are sure to get a ton of complaints as to why there are no trophies and no t shirts.

Pick a location where you don't need police protection. Police fees add up very quickly. Not having police on roads is just inviting a law suit. My next race will be in a state park- where the permit for the race was $5.00, and there is parking and bathrooms already there.

As for the cost of races justifying bandits... we still get bandits at $5/10! They take up valuable commodities that you dont even think of. Parking in some of our locations is a prime concern. If you are a bandit and you parked, well thats one less parking space for someone who supported the club.

I guess its an ethics thing. You either care that you steal, or you don't. The value of what you steal really doesn't play into it.